1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA 3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION 4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE 5 6 7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ) 8 CALIFORNIA, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 -vs- ) No. 1133603 11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 12 Defendant. ) 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 18 19 MONDAY, MARCH 28, 2005 20 21 8:30 A.M. 22 23 (PAGES 3726 THROUGH 3787) 24 25 26 27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 BY: Official Court Reporter 3726 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR., 4 District Attorney -and- 5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney 6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS, 7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney -and- 8 MAG NICOLA, Sr. Deputy District Attorney 9 1112 Santa Barbara Street Santa Barbara, California 93101 10 11 12 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU 13 BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ. -and- 14 SUSAN C. YU, ESQ. 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 15 Los Angeles, California 90067 16 -and- 17 SANGER & SWYSEN BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 18 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C Santa Barbara, California 93101 19 -and- 20 OXMAN and JAROSCAK 21 BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ. 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard 22 Santa Fe Springs, California 90670 23 24 25 26 27 28 3727 1 Santa Maria, California 2 Monday, March 28, 2005 3 8:30 a.m. 4 5 (The following proceedings were held in 6 open court outside the presence and hearing of the 7 jury:) 8 9 THE COURT: Good morning. 10 COUNSEL AT COUNSEL TABLE: (In unison) 11 Good morning, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: I'll say that again. Good 13 morning. 14 MR. SANGER: Good morning. 15 THE COURT: Let's see, the moving party here 16 is the People. 17 MR. SNEDDON: Good morning, Your Honor. 18 What I would like to do in my presentation 19 this morning is to proceed by setting a little bit 20 about the legal framework for which the discussion 21 on the 1108 motion in particular, and begin with the 22 1108 motion. 23 And I think the simplest way to begin with 24 this discussion is the fact that in 1995, the 25 legislature, in enacting Penal Code Section 1108, 26 significantly changed the law in California and the 27 practice of criminal law in California. It's clear 28 from the legislative intent of Section 1108 that it 3728 1 was a recognition that crimes such as child 2 molestation are secretive, they're serious, 3 children are particularly and uniquely vulnerable, 4 and that oftentimes, and in most cases in fact, it's 5 the credibility of the victim that is at issue. 6 The Supreme Court in Falsetta that upheld 7 Section 1108 against the constitutional attacks made 8 it very clear that these types of crimes are 9 committed in seclusion, without third-party 10 witnesses, and without substantial corroborating 11 evidence. And it's precisely for that reason that 12 the legislature enacted Penal Code Section 1108. 13 Secondly, there was a legislative finding 14 that has been repeated over and over and over again 15 by the courts of this state in recognizing the 16 validity of that particular -- this particular 17 legislative finding; that is, that the willingness 18 to commit sexual offenses is not common to most 19 individuals, and therefore propensity evidence is 20 uniquely probative and necessary in determining the 21 credibility of witnesses. 22 There's a further legislative intent 23 reflected in 1108 that has again been repeatedly 24 confirmed by the courts of this state, and that is 25 that Evidence Code Section 1108 evidence should be 26 liberally admitted. Indeed, cases now recognize 27 that it's established principle that it is 28 presumptive to be admissible in criminal cases. 3729 1 We feel for this reason that the evidence, 2 and the pro-offer of proof that we've indicated to 3 the Court we intend to present would be in this 4 case, is consistent with the legislative intent and 5 consistent with the judicial interpretation of 6 Section 1108 and be uniquely admissible as to 7 corroborating the victims in this particular case. 8 Now, in that connection, Your Honor, the 9 Court is in a much better position now than it would 10 have been to hear this motion before trial started 11 because the Court's now had an opportunity to see 12 the testimony and the evidence of Gavin Arvizo, that 13 of the sister and of the brother. 14 But more importantly, the Court has had an 15 opportunity to hear Mr. Mesereau's opening statement 16 and Mr. Mesereau's cross-examination of the family 17 members in this particular case, and including Gavin 18 Arvizo. There's no question that they have 19 presented squarely the fact that the issue -- that 20 the family's credibility, and Gavin Arvizo's 21 credibility, and in fact indeed the mother's 22 credibility, is central to the defense case, and 23 that is precisely -- precisely the reason that 1108 24 was enacted. 25 Pursuant to their theory, I don't think it's 26 been any secret, it's been a scorched-earth process, 27 there's a take-no-prisoners approach to these 28 children and to this mother who is going to testify 3730 1 in the next couple of weeks. And while this 2 approach is hardly unique, it's hardly unexpected 3 and it's hardly novel, the point is that these are 4 precisely the kind of tactics that the legislature 5 recognized where propensity evidence should be 6 admitted in order to balance the scales in 7 situations where an accused has exhibited propensity 8 to commit similar types of crimes. 9 Now, I don't intend to go through the offers 10 of proof in detail, because the Court already has 11 the information before it. But I would like to 12 summarize what it is for the Court that we're 13 seeking to admit. 14 First, we're asking the Court's permission 15 to allow us to have one prior child victim testify 16 to three separate incidents of molestation by the 17 defendant. The molestations are very similar in 18 nature. They involved the genitalia of the kid -- 19 of the child, and they involve instances where -- 20 two instances outside the clothing of the child on a 21 prolonged basis, and a third incident where the 22 child -- where the hand was thrust up inside the 23 pants of the child, onto the skin of the child. 24 We're seeking to admit no less than five 25 third-party witnesses of inappropriate molestations 26 and touchings by the defendant as to four separate 27 children. Again, the conduct is similar in nature. 28 Some of it is kissing, hugging. And other parts of 3731 1 it involve, again, insertion of the defendant's hand 2 into the genitalia of the particular children 3 involved. 4 I think it's noteworthy to bring to the 5 Court's attention, as I will also cover in certain 6 parts of my other presentation to the Court, all of 7 these children are basically between the ages of 10 8 and 13 at the time that the offenses occurred or 9 were observed by third parties. 10 Thirdly, there is -- there are some 11 witnesses who have direct observation by third-party 12 witnesses that involve multiple incidents involving 13 the same child. So we not only have witnesses that 14 are multiple, but we have multiple incidents 15 involving observations of the third party. 16 We have an additional incident -- an 17 additional witness who will testify to incidents 18 involving the defendant with children, four other 19 children, observing the defendant in bed with four 20 other children, and on three of those occasions 21 observing the child and the defendant in bed, and 22 that the child and the defendant's underpants were 23 lying next to the bed. 24 We have a sixth incident that involves the 25 same child that has already been observed by at 26 least two other witnesses that are on our list to be 27 called as being -- that observed acts of molestation 28 by the defendant. And this witness observed the 3732 1 defendant licking the head of a child in the 2 identical manner to that described by Star Arvizo, 3 as will be described by Janet Arvizo. We think this 4 is particularly probative in light of the 5 defendant's contention filed by papers in this court 6 that this is an example of Janet Arvizo's delusional 7 state that she saw this, when, in fact, we have 8 another witness who saw this very conduct occur by 9 the defendant as to another child about the same age 10 as Gavin Arvizo. 11 Lastly, we have two witnesses that will 12 testify to the fact that the defendant encouraged 13 children to call him "daddy," children other than 14 the children in this case, and that he talked about, 15 with the mother of one of the children, how it was 16 important that the mother think of him and the 17 children and them as being all one big family, and 18 they were like family together. Again, conduct and 19 statements which have been, to this point in the 20 trial, alleged to have been uniquely responsible to 21 the Arvizo family, when, in fact, there's evidence 22 indicating that the defendant has used this approach 23 with children and families prior to the commencement 24 of the trial of this particular case and in other 25 instances involving families that are not -- have 26 not have been a party so far. 27 With regard to the 1108, of course, the 28 central issue is the balancing of the probative 3733 1 value versus the substantial undue prejudice to the 2 defendant. I think that it is -- it is important to 3 keep in mind what the courts have said about undue 4 prejudice and what the courts have said about a 5 substantial prejudice, because these are concepts 6 that are unique in the legal profession and they are 7 unique to cases such as this. 8 And I think the first starting point for us 9 in this regard, Your Honor, is the language that is 10 found in cases that recognize that the unique stigma 11 of a child sexual abuse case, the danger is one that 12 all propensity evidence -- it is the same in all 13 propensity evidence in such trials. It is for this 14 reason that the evidence was previously excluded but 15 is precisely the reason now that it's admitted into 16 evidence. 17 So simply the fact that it is a child molest 18 prior charge or uncharged offense in and of itself 19 doesn't answer the question as to whether it's 20 prejudicial. In fact, the language that we've 21 quoted to the Court in our moving papers of the 22 Branch court, the Branch case made it very clear 23 that where the conduct of the defendant in the case 24 before the Court and the conduct of the defendant in 25 the charged or uncharged acts is very similar in 26 nature, that that is found not to be what the courts 27 would consider inflammatory or prejudicial under the 28 concept of 1108. 3734 1 And that is precisely the situation that we 2 have here. The conduct is very similar, if not 3 identical, in many of the instances, and therefore 4 in the balancing of the 352 criteria, under the 5 doctrines of those cases that have analyzed the 6 balancing process, that has not been found one that 7 would cause the Court concern in allowing this 8 evidence to come before a court. 9 I think it's also important, Your Honor, to 10 recall the language in the Soto case that we cited 11 to the Court with regard to prejudice. And if the 12 Court would allow me, I'd like to read just a little 13 bit from that decision at page 989: 14 "Prejudice, as contemplated by Section 352, 15 is not so sweeping as to include any evidence the 16 opponent finds inconvenient. Evidence is not 17 prejudicial, as that term is used in Section 352 18 context, merely because it undermines the opponent's 19 position or shores up that of the proponent. The 20 ability to do so is what makes evidence relevant. 21 The code speaks in terms of undue prejudice. The 22 prejudice referred to in Evidence Code 352 applies 23 to evidence which uniquely tends to evoke an 24 emotional bias against a defendant as an individual 25 which has very little effect on the issues. In 26 applying 352, prejudice is not synonymous with 27 damaging." 28 I think that's important in this case, 3735 1 particularly in light of what I've just said about 2 how the Branch case and the Falsetta case and some 3 of the others have applied the principle that when 4 the case is similar in nature and the conduct is 5 similar in nature, that that doesn't rise to be 6 inflammatory under the balancing process. 7 The second balancing issue for the Court as 8 outlined in the cases is remoteness. This 9 particular case -- in this particular case, at the 10 time that the charges were actually filed two years 11 ago, the incidents involved would have been 12 somewhere between 10 to 12 years prior to this case. 13 We have cited to the Court in our moving 14 papers a number of cases involving remoteness. And 15 of those cases, there are 11 of them that I 16 believe -- at least 11 that have been indicated, 17 been cited to the Court. Some, like Branch, are 30 18 years old. Seven of the cases involve uncharged 19 prior offenses. Four of the cases involve charged 20 prior offenses where there was either a trial or an 21 admission -- a trial finding of guilt or an 22 admission of guilt. In those cases, we have cases 23 like Frazier, which is 15 and 16 years old. Soto 24 case, uncharged, 20 years old. Davis case, 13 25 years, uncharged. Branch, 30 years, uncharged. 26 Fitch, the case was seven years, uncharged. Waples, 27 W-a-p-l-e-s, 20 years, uncharged. 28 And some of the charged ones, again, like 3736 1 Pierce, they were 23 years old. And Falsetta, they 2 were 14 and 12 years old. And in Britt, the priors 3 were 13 and 22 years old. And in a murder case, 4 where they admitted evidence under 1101 where 5 remoteness was at issue in a murder case, the 6 uncharged crime was 17 years old. 7 So I think the Court can see that with 8 regard to the remoteness issue, the balance on the 9 scale is far in favor of admissibility of the 10 charges of the uncharged cases and priors that we 11 seek to admit. The cases make it very clear that 12 this is not something that would cause a Court 13 concern in allowing the admissibility of prior 14 uncharged acts. 15 Now, I think where the problem arises in 16 this area, Your Honor, is with the Harris case. And 17 I think the Court is familiar with the Harris case. 18 It's been cited by both sides. And it is the only 19 published case that we have found that actually 20 deals with a situation where a lower court was 21 reversed on an abuse of discretion where they 22 allowed 1108 evidence in. There are several other 23 cases that reversed, but most of those were for 24 instructional error before the Court came down with 25 guidance as to what instructions to be given to the 26 jury with regard to these particular issues. 27 But Harris is the only case that I've been 28 able to find and it's the only case that's been 3737 1 cited by either side where a Judge was reversed on 2 appeal. And I think Harris illustrates the 3 difference here between remoteness and the 4 connection between remoteness and the confusion, 5 which is the third factor that the Court has 6 considered with the jury. 7 The problem with the Harris case was, it 8 involved a tremendous amount of violence. As you 9 may recall from that case, Your Honor, the victim 10 was attacked. She was mutilated in the genitalia 11 area. She was stabbed multiple times. The knife 12 was left in her body at the time. There was 13 evidence at the time that the defendant, Harris, was 14 found, that he had blood on his private parts and in 15 a size that, in essence, the woman had been raped as 16 well as mutilated. And the charging offense was a 17 288 without any violence in it at all. 18 And the Court found on appeal that that case 19 simply was one of those cases where the Court should 20 have exercised its discretion and not allowed it in 21 because of the fact that the conduct was so 22 dissimilar and the conduct was inflammatory because 23 of the nature of the violence involved. 24 And the other factor that the Court pointed 25 out was how, in attempting to try to balance the 26 inflammatory nature, the Court basically redacted 27 the way the crime was committed in such a fashion 28 that it was absolutely impossible for the jury to 3738 1 understand what really happened. 2 And of course that's not -- that's not a 3 problem that this Court is faced with. We're not 4 faced with a Harris, because the crimes are not 5 different. We're not faced with a Harris, because 6 we're not dealing with violence. We're not faced 7 with Harris, because there's no reason for this 8 Court to redact anything, because of the very, very, 9 very similar nature of the conduct involved with the 10 defendant and Gavin Arvizo and the ones that we're 11 attempting to put in as uncharged prior acts. 12 So I say to the Court that the confusion to 13 the jury in this case is simply not present. And 14 for whatever -- whatever hay that the defense wants 15 to make of it in their argument to the Court, the 16 fact of the matter is, it is clearly distinguishable 17 from the instant case. 18 Now, the last factor we want to talk about 19 is undue consumption of time. And we've indicated 20 to the Court in our moving papers what our estimate 21 of the direct examination of the witnesses would be; 22 that basically almost all of the cases, the direct 23 examination would be less than an hour, and in some 24 cases significantly less than that. That's not 25 accounting for the defense's right for 26 cross-examination. 27 But I will indicate to the Court to the 28 Court, as pointed out in the Frazier case, and this 3739 1 is a 2001 case, 89 Cal.App.4th, at page 42, in that 2 particular case, 182 pages of the transcript, in 3 other words, 27 percent of the trial, in other 4 words, the Court said in the decision, one quarter 5 of the trial was devoted to the priors, that that 6 was not, in their opinion, undue consumption of 7 time. 8 Now, given the length of time of this trial, 9 and given what we're seeking to admit, and the 10 tightness of the issues that we're talking about, 11 clearly our case is not even going to come close to 12 consuming 25 percent of the trial time in this case. 13 And the second one that the Court -- if the 14 Court wants to review another case that also 15 examined the same issue of undue consumption of time 16 is the Mullens case, M-u-l-l-e-n-s. And that's a 17 2004 case. It's a very recent case, 119 18 Cal.App.4th, 648 at 661, where the defense in that 19 particular case made the same or similar remarks as 20 the defense in this case; that we'll end up with a 21 series of mini-trials over the uncharged acts. 22 Well, that of course, is exactly what happened in 23 the 11 cases that we cited to you where multiple 24 uncharged or charged offenses were admitted into 25 evidence. And the Court, in those cases, as well as 26 this recent case, indicated that's really not an 27 appropriate reason in and of itself to reject 1108 28 evidence in light of the very, very strong 3740 1 legislative intent that this kind of evidence be 2 admitted in trials of this very nature. 3 So I indicate to the Court that all of the 4 balancing factors that have been traditionally 5 looked to by courts for the issue of 1108 6 admissibility not only tend to favor the prosecution 7 in this case, but I think on balance favor, in a 8 very strong way, that this Court should admit the 9 evidence that we seek to bring before the jury in 10 this particular case. 11 Let me just say one last thing in that 12 connection, Your Honor, and that is one of the 13 things that the Court has looked at in factors of 14 admissibility in this area in terms of the probative 15 value. And I've talked a lot about the prejudicial 16 effect. But the probative value, that there are 17 three principles I think that can be distilled from 18 the cases in this area. 19 From the Ewoldt case, E-w-o-l-d-t, which is 20 one of the leading cases on 1101 evidence, but 21 clearly the language is probative on this particular 22 issue, and that is the probative value of uncharged 23 offenses increases when the source is of independent 24 evidence. And by the way, that very language has 25 been cited in some of the 1108 cases, and so that's 26 the reason I went back to the seminal case on it. 27 But the fact of the matter is, that's exactly what 28 we have here is uncharged offenses which are of an 3741 1 independent source and independent witnesses. 2 In the Yavanov, Y-a-v-a-n-o-v, case, which 3 is cited in our brief, and the language is found at 4 page 405, another factor on the probative value is 5 the frequency of the uncharged acts bolsters the 6 relevance. And again, we have -- as I've indicated 7 to the Court, the frequency and the number of 8 individuals involved who observed things as well as 9 the different number of victims that were observed. 10 And lastly, the Frazier case at 89 11 Cal.App.4th, page 30 at page 41, indicated insofar 12 as 1108 evidence goes that the pattern as to the 13 same type of children is significant in the 14 balancing process. 15 And we submit to the Court that in this 16 case, of course, the pattern in the similarities; 17 that the victims are similar in age, the manner in 18 which the victims were cultivated is similar, and 19 the crimes are similar. And under these doctrines, 20 I think, are all the more reason why this evidence 21 should be admissible. 22 At this point, Your Honor, I'd like to just 23 shift gears, if I might, to deal a little bit with 24 the 1101 issue before the Court. And again, I'll 25 try not to go over things I've already covered and 26 that have been briefed, but I want to highlight some 27 of the things that are more relevant to the Court's 28 decision here this morning. 3742 1 I think it's important to start again with 2 the cases that are responsible for developing the 3 guidelines under Section 1101 of the Evidence Code. 4 And, you know, those two cases are -- came down at 5 the same basic time, and that was Ewoldt and Balcom, 6 B-a-l-c-o-m. Balcom's at 7 Cal.4th, and the 7 language I'm citing is around 424. But they make it 8 very clear -- that decision made it very clear that 9 when Courts are faced with evidence admissibility 10 under 1101, that they are usually and traditionally 11 divided into three camps. There's the identity, the 12 modus operandi and intent. And there are different 13 standards for the Court with regard to reviewing the 14 admissibility. 15 And we have indicated to the Court that we 16 are seeking to admit the evidence that we put in our 17 offer of proof under at least three, if not four, 18 separate exceptions that are noted in 1101(b) of the 19 Evidence Code. And the first, of course, is the 20 intent. And by intent, we're talking about the lewd 21 and lascivious act and the sexual gratification for 22 which the acts were done in this case. And 23 particularly I think if you look at the language in 24 the Branch case at 91 Cal.App.4 at 274, you'll see 25 in an analysis of that case how the intent or the 26 sexual gratification is a key issue in cases of 27 288(a), which is the kind of offense that we have 28 before the Court here. 3743 1 Again, we indicated to the Court a second 2 reason for the admissibility is the motive. And the 3 motive has been recognized by the Thompson case, 4 which we also cited to the Court, is the incentive 5 to criminal behavior. And here it's a propensity, 6 proclivity for the defendant to be involved in 7 relationships with children between the ages of 10 8 and 13. 9 And lastly -- well, in addition to 10 opportunity, we indicated the modus operandi, and I 11 want to point out just a couple of things on modus 12 operandi. Modus operandi on the scale of the issues 13 on both the Ewoldt and Balcom cases is in the 14 middle. And when it's intent, there needs to be 15 less similarities. When it's identity, there needs 16 to be almost like a hand print. And for modus 17 operandi, it's sort of in the middle. But both 18 Balcom and Ewoldt make it very clear that when 19 you're dealing with modus operandi, it does not have 20 to be distinctive necessarily, nor does it have to 21 be unusual. 22 Now, I would submit to the Court, on the 23 other hand, in this particular case we have both a 24 distinctive one and an usual one, and that is that 25 we have a series of acts involved on male children 26 between the ages of 10 and 13. And we have pointed 27 out to the Court in our points and authorities a 28 number of cases that have found, in evaluating the 3744 1 admissibility of 1101 evidence, critical 2 similarities that are far less unique than the ones 3 I've suggested to the Court here. 4 I won't go through the whole litany, but 5 I'll direct the Court to page 46 of our brief 6 between lines 20 and 28, and we indicated to the 7 Court there are no less than, looks like, eight 8 cases in which the courts of the state have admitted 9 evidence under 1101 where the similarity involved 10 things just like I have suggested to the Court. 11 Victims: Close relatives, white, young, females, 12 all white males between the ages of 18 and 25. I 13 mean, how close can you get? Two 12-year-old 14 children. So I think the Court is on very firm 15 ground in evaluating the admissibility of evidence 16 that we seek under 1101(b) to rely on those cases 17 and rely on the distinctive nature of the uncharged 18 offenses in this particular case. 19 Of course in the 1101 field, the balancing 20 test, the four factors that were outlined in 1108 21 also apply to 1101(b), and I -- without reiterating 22 them -- and I won't reiterate the factors that I've 23 gone through, but I see nothing in the evidence that 24 we seek under 1101(b) that my remarks to the Court 25 would be any different than the remarks I made under 26 1108. And, in fact, probably, in many cases, would 27 follow even stronger in the area of admissibility 28 than they would have been in the 1108 area. 3745 1 I would like to point out to the Court, 2 however, the case of Dancer, D-a-n-c-e-r, which is a 3 case that we cited in our brief, and in particular 4 we cited -- that's at 45 Cal.App.4th 1677. And on 5 page 486 -- 485 of our brief, we indicated in the 6 Dancer case they found something like 12 or 13 items 7 of similarity in that case. And we contrasted that 8 and compared that to our particular case where we 9 identified for the Court at least 17 similarities, 10 much of the same -- paralleled the same kind of 11 information that was available in Dancer. And it's 12 for those reasons, Your Honor, we believe that that 13 case is very pertinent to the admissibility of the 14 evidence presented here. 15 I would like to reiterate that I think 16 there's a couple of things that need to be said 17 here. The defense has made a big thing about the 18 fact that the defendant -- in fact, Mr. Mesereau 19 stood up in his opening statement and read off a 20 list of things that the defendant, Michael Jackson, 21 has bought the mother of the victim in this case. 22 And I think it's illustrative of the fact 23 that this is not unique to the mother in this 24 particular case, but that -- to other mothers 25 involved with other children, that we intend to put 26 evidence on that this was a rather standard 27 procedure for the defendant to buy gifts and to do 28 things for the mothers in those cases to keep them 3746 1 preoccupied so the defendant would have free rein 2 with the child involved. 3 And again, the other part of the 1108 is to 4 establish that the nature of the relationship with 5 these children, that there was nothing unique about 6 the relationship that was developed between Gavin 7 Arvizo and the defendant in this case, that it was 8 precisely -- precisely like the kind of relationship 9 that he developed and had with a number of special 10 friends over a period of a number of years that were 11 witnessed by the witnesses that we've indicated to 12 the Court, that have observed that kind of 13 relationship between the defendant and children 14 between the ages of 10 and 13. And by "that kind of 15 relationship," I want to make it clear to the Court 16 what I'm talking about. It's a relationship 17 different from that, from kids who are visiting that 18 ranch for purposes of riding the rides, going to the 19 movies, enjoying the facilities, and then leaving, 20 on a day basis. 21 These are relationships that were developed 22 on an ongoing basis where the children came, they 23 visited, oftentimes they visited without their 24 parents. They visited other locations where the 25 defendant was living at other times, and developed 26 the kind of relationship that we have heard 27 testimony about with Gavin Arvizo. And I think, 28 again, that this is the kind of evidence precisely 3747 1 that this jury ought to hear, that this is not the 2 first time that the defendant has approached a child 3 in this manner and in this respect and think that 4 it's a unique experience for Gavin Arvizo. That, in 5 fact, this is the way that the defendant operates. 6 And that's precisely why I believe that the modus 7 operandi exception is uniquely applicable to this 8 particular case. 9 I'm assuming, Your Honor, that just about, 10 I think, wraps up what I wanted to draw the Court's 11 attention to. Of course, I don't want to repeat the 12 things we put in our brief. And I'll reserve, of 13 course, my remarks. 14 I think the Court would like to -- I'm 15 assuming the Court would like to handle the 16 admissibility of the evidence of the civil 17 settlements after the Court finishes this evidence, 18 and I'm not addressing that now. 19 THE COURT: That's fine. 20 MR. SNEDDON: I'm open to any questions that 21 the Court has at this point, if you have any. 22 THE COURT: No. 23 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you very much, Your 24 Honor, for listening to me. 25 MR. MESEREAU: Good morning, Your Honor. 26 Your Honor, my approach is going to be quite 27 different from that of the prosecutor. And my 28 approach is based upon comments made by this Court 3748 1 at a prior hearing on this issue. 2 When the issue initially surfaced in open 3 court, this Court very courageously and honorably 4 described a prior incident where Your Honor was the 5 trial judge in a case brought by prosecutors against 6 a defendant alleging child molestation. The 7 defendant pled not guilty. The Court used all of 8 the cases, I'm sure, that Mr. Sneddon has cited to 9 justify the admission of 1108 evidence. The Court 10 heard that 1108 evidence, then the Court heard the 11 underlying case, and as I interpreted what the Court 12 said, Your Honor, you found the underlying case so 13 lacking in credibility and substance and so 14 problematic that you declared a mistrial, even 15 though you had, under the technical law cited by 16 Mr. Sneddon repeatedly this morning, allowed in 1108 17 evidence. 18 THE COURT: Counsel, that -- actually, I 19 granted a new trial after conviction, but the same 20 point. 21 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Based on that point. 23 MR. MESEREAU: I have no doubt that every 24 case and authority cited by Mr. Sneddon could have 25 been used to justify the admission of that evidence. 26 But the Court did not just rely on those cases. The 27 Court did not just rely on those authorities. The 28 Court had a concern for justice, and fairness, for 3749 1 which we commend the Court. And the Court was not 2 going to allow the 1108 statute to supersede 3 fairness, justice, the presumption of innocence and 4 the burden of proof. 5 And I think the Court crystallized the issue 6 before it this morning when you related that event. 7 What I believe the Court was concerned with, and I'm 8 putting it in slightly different terms, is that this 9 Court, despite that statute, did not want to see 10 either the burden of proof or the presumption of 11 innocence reduced or eliminated by the introduction 12 of that evidence. And what I believe the Court 13 said, in different words, was the following: The 14 weaker the case, the more problematic the 1108 15 evidence. The stronger the underlying case, the 16 less a possibility of prejudice and injustice by 17 admitting it. 18 And indeed, no matter what the prosecutor 19 may cite in his arguments to the Court, the statute 20 does allow the Court to exercise discretion under 21 Evidence Code 352, and that discretion is 22 significant. 23 That gets us to the question, what has the 24 Court seen in this courtroom? Is the case strong on 25 credibility and substance or is it weak on 26 credibility and substance? If it's really powerful, 27 the Court probably is less worried. If there are 28 credibility problems with their case and their 3750 1 witnesses, the Court has great concern to worry 2 because the potential for lessening the burden of 3 proof on the prosecution in this case would be 4 great. 5 Now, the Court is dealing with some unique 6 situations. First of all, you have a celebrity. A 7 celebrity who has been subjected to all kinds of 8 innuendo, scandalous reporting and rumor, and a 9 celebrity who has attracted all kinds of claims for 10 money, who has developed a lifestyle at Neverland 11 which he has advertised to the world, which he 12 believes and contends, and many believe, is a 13 benefit to society. The prosecution has come in to 14 try and turn all this on its head and suggest that 15 Neverland is some magnet for molestation and 16 criminal behavior. Well, that's going to be an 17 issue for the jury. But certainly at this point the 18 Court knows, based on the evidence alone, that Mr. 19 Jackson has developed Neverland as a Disney-like 20 type of world that he uses to help children from the 21 inner city, children around the world, et cetera. 22 There's a bigger problem than the uniqueness 23 of the case, and none of the cases cited by Mr. 24 Sneddon deal with celebrities or anyone remotely 25 close to Mr. Jackson in terms of notoriety and 26 attraction for greed and misuse of the legal 27 process. 28 The Court has seen three witnesses who the 3751 1 Court -- who the prosecution suggests are victims. 2 And without going into a lot of the details, which I 3 don't think the Court wants me to give a closing 4 argument at this point, but there is no question all 5 three of those witnesses have been riddled with 6 problems in their testimony. All have agreed they 7 lied repeatedly. All were caught lying on the 8 witness stand. All were caught in notorious and 9 repeated inconsistencies and all contradicted 10 themselves repeatedly. Every witness was a problem. 11 Now, if the Court agrees there are 12 significant credibility problems with Gavin Arvizo, 13 Star Arvizo, and Davellin Arvizo -- and I believe 14 the Court does, because I don't see how anyone 15 watching the cross-examination could disagree with 16 that. If the Court thinks there are issues to worry 17 about, I would ask the Court to add to that concern 18 the following: Gavin alleges two acts of alleged 19 molestation. There is no eyewitness to either one. 20 And there is no DNA to support it. In fact, there's 21 no forensic evidence at all to support it. Star, 22 along with his credibility problems, alleges -- it 23 changes, the number. But he appears to allege two 24 acts of molestation, separate from those of Gavin 25 that he watched. There is no eyewitness. There is 26 no DNA. There is no forensics to support it. 27 So as the Court looks at the evidence so 28 far, what do you really have? You have what, in 3752 1 effect, is a very problematic case, and I submit the 2 prosecutors know that. It's extremely problematic. 3 It's filled with credibility issues. And those 4 credibility issues I submit to the Court at this 5 point are compounded by the evidence they've tried 6 to introduce so far about conspiracy. 7 Now, I realize we're talking this morning 8 about the molestation claims, but certainly the 9 Court, and any jury, when gauging credibility, if 10 the Court thought the conspiracy claims were 11 problematic, filled with credibility issues, that 12 would most certainly and rationally spill over into 13 other claims and vice versa. 14 Now, the Court at this point has heard the 15 prosecutors talk about the mother. You've seen the 16 rebuttal tape. You've seen the demeanor of the 17 witnesses. You've seen the three witnesses get up 18 and say, "We all were lying repeatedly." The Court 19 at this point has its own conclusions about what 20 that rebuttal tape suggests and whether these 21 answers were spontaneous or whether they were 22 scripted and rehearsed. And I don't think anyone 23 looking at that tape is even going to imagine that 24 these are all rehearsed answers. The Court knows 25 that the family were sending cards to Mr. Jackson 26 way before they made their glowing statements on the 27 rebuttal tape calling him "daddy" and how he had 28 helped Gavin with his cancer, et cetera. 3753 1 The Court has seen witnesses come in who 2 have tried to downplay what Mr. Jackson did for them 3 and get caught in notorious lies repeatedly. The 4 Court has seen notorious differences between what's 5 said on the witness stand, what's said in police 6 interviews, et cetera. 7 Now, the Court hasn't seen the mother yet. 8 And we wish the Court would see the mother before it 9 makes its decision, because everything I'm arguing 10 to the Court is going to be magnified a million 11 times when she testifies. 12 What the Court has seen the prosecution do 13 is the following: They have desperately tried to 14 prove to this jury why their witnesses would tell 15 repeated lies, why they would contradict themselves, 16 why they were caught in numerous inconsistencies. 17 They are reduced, as prosecutors, not to just 18 proving a case beyond a reasonable doubt, but trying 19 to prove to a jury why their witnesses lied. And 20 they've gotten so desperate they're now trying to 21 differentiate the mother from the ex-husband, which 22 is simply not going to work, because one of their 23 witnesses, Louise Palanker, when she wrote her first 24 check for $10,000, was asked by the husband to write 25 it to Janet Arvizo. It was received by Janet, 26 endorsed by Janet into her mother's account. And of 27 course, as the Court knows, the next check which Ms. 28 Palanker wrote, because she didn't want to pay a 3754 1 gift tax, wanted it to go to another individual, was 2 written to David. It was then also endorsed by him 3 and deposited into Janet mother's account. 4 The prosecution is reduced now to trying to 5 prove that Janet Arvizo did not always directly ask 6 for money, and yet the overwhelming proof is going 7 to be that she didn't directly ask for it, she 8 indirectly did, and received it. And that's going 9 to be absolutely proven beyond any doubt when the 10 case is finally to the jury. Because we have 11 witnesses coming in our case that nobody has seen 12 yet. 13 I submit to this Court that the introduction 14 of 1108 evidence is very problematic, given the weak 15 nature and the contradictory nature of their case. 16 I submit that the introduction of 1108 evidence 17 could easily reduce the burden of proof the 18 prosecutors have, could easily jeopardize the 19 presumption of innocence in this case and could 20 render an unfair trial. 21 Again, I understand what the cases say and 22 what they cite, but this Court has very honorably 23 suggested its concern for fairness, as it was in 24 another case, and that's why the Court waited to see 25 what some of their witnesses looked like. I wish we 26 would defer it, because every time they put a 27 witness on, it gets worse. But nevertheless, here's 28 where we are. 3755 1 Now, what is 1108 evidence essentially? 2 Essentially it's character evidence. And when the 3 debate was going on in legislature about whether or 4 not to create an exception, tremendous concerns were 5 raised about allowing the prosecution to simply 6 introduce evidence of -- what appears to be evidence 7 of bad character. 8 Now, they can phrase it in any terminology 9 they want, they can say it's evidence of modus 10 operandi, intent, blah blah. But the reality is, 11 they're trying to bring in character evidence to 12 bolster a separate charge. And any time you do 13 that, the Court has to be concerned with the 14 possibility of prejudice. 15 Now, I don't need to recite the cases to the 16 Court on prejudice. I know the Court's familiar 17 with them. But every time they define prejudice, 18 they define it in terms of emotion. Will it have an 19 emotional effect on the jury that is improper? Will 20 it have an emotional effect on the jury that results 21 in unfair prejudice to the defendant? And if, in 22 fact, that emotional effect is there, will it also 23 spill over into the other factors like confusion of 24 issues, et cetera? 25 The evidence they're trying to introduce is 26 evidence of a highly inflammatory and emotional 27 nature. There's no question about that. But I 28 think the Court also has to look at the substantive 3756 1 part of the evidence that they want to introduce, 2 because from what we can see in the cases that we've 3 looked at, every time they've introduced 1108 4 evidence in a case like this, they have had a 5 separate alleged victim describe something similar. 6 Nowhere can we find they are just 7 willy-nilly bringing in third-party witnesses to say 8 they saw something without bringing the alleged 9 victim in. Yet that is exactly what 99 percent of 10 the evidence they plan to bring in is. And I submit 11 the potential for prejudice there is overwhelming. 12 They probably couldn't win a civil case if they were 13 pursuing a civil case based on nothing but third 14 parties. Yet they want to do it in a criminal case 15 without any of these alleged victims coming in, with 16 the exception of one, who is problematic, and I will 17 explain that to the Court. 18 So I submit the very substance of what 19 they're trying to do is wrong, and it's potentially 20 very prejudicial to Mr. Jackson particularly given 21 the weak nature of the case. 22 Now, let's look at what they're trying to 23 do. They have an alleged prior victim named Brett 24 Barnes who tells us he never was touched improperly. 25 They want to bring in four witnesses to talk about 26 Brett Barnes. They don't want to bring him in. 27 Because the moment they bring him in, they're done. 28 So they want to bring in allegedly four honest 3757 1 witnesses - I guess they're vouching for their 2 credibility - to testify that Mr. Barnes was 3 improperly touched. 4 Who are their main witnesses? Their main 5 witnesses sued Mr. Jackson in the mid '90s, and for 6 the first time Mr. Jackson decided, "I'm tired of 7 settling these stupid cases, I'm actually going to 8 defend this one." It resulted in the longest civil 9 trial in the history of this courthouse. And the 10 Court, I'm sure, knows a lot more about that case 11 than I do. At numerous times during that six-month 12 trial, the trial Judge made findings that the 13 plaintiffs were lying, not being candid, changing 14 their stories, even leaving the bench on a couple of 15 occasions. And when the dust settled, the jury 16 returned a verdict for Mr. Jackson, awarded Mr. 17 Jackson damages, because the plaintiffs had stole 18 from him. The Judge then awarded not only costs, 19 but legal fees, and in the end Mr. Jackson obtained 20 a judgment for over a million dollars against these 21 lying plaintiffs. 22 They want the Court to allow these lying 23 plaintiffs to come in now again and try and testify 24 to improper acts, when there is no alleged victim 25 they intend to call. That's just plain wrong. And 26 if they suggest it wouldn't be time-consuming to 27 litigate that issue, all the Court has to do is look 28 at the six-month trial and its length to know that's 3758 1 not true, because they sold stories to tabloids, 2 they were caught lying, and they had a big judgment 3 against them. 4 Then we have Jordie Chandler, who everyone 5 tells us, and apparently was announced on television 6 this morning, is not going to testify. So who do 7 they want to bring in to testify to that? First of 8 all, Your Honor, I would note that in their motion, 9 they mention someone named Bob Jones. And in very 10 graphic -- in a very graphic manner they told the 11 Court that Mr. Jones had worked for Mr. Jackson for 12 years, had traveled internationally with him, and 13 would testify to all sorts of improprieties with 14 children. We just were produced a police report by 15 the prosecution where Mr. Jones flat out denies 16 virtually everything they said in their motion. He 17 has told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs, with counsel, 18 that he never saw anything inappropriate happen when 19 Mr. Jackson was in the company of any of these 20 children. 21 They haven't told that to the Court in any 22 of their papers, to my knowledge, but they just gave 23 us that report. 24 Now, what happens if you allow third-party 25 testimony about Mr. Chandler without allowing Mr. -- 26 forcing them, or ordering them, or requiring them to 27 have Mr. Chandler, the alleged victim, testify? You 28 then have people come in to say what they saw 3759 1 without any victim to confirm it. 2 And what happened back in those days? In 3 summary, this is what happened: Chandler's parents 4 had been divorced in 1986. The father had given up 5 custody of the child. When these alleged events 6 happened, the father jumped on the bandwagon and 7 wanted to become a multimillionaire, and he fueled 8 litigation. And all of a sudden, you had the 9 parents suing Mr. Jackson, you had -- the mother's 10 new husband then decided to sue Mr. Jackson for 11 allegedly interfering with his business. He had an 12 auto company, and he claimed that the publicity had 13 interfered with his business. He wanted millions. 14 After the settlement, the father then filed a new 15 lawsuit against Mr. Jackson wanting 30 million more 16 dollars. That was litigated and he lost. You have 17 all sorts of collateral litigation, and eventually 18 Mr. Chandler filed papers in Superior Court seeking 19 legal emancipation from his parents. 20 Where is the justice in this case of 21 allowing parents to come in who collected lots of 22 money because Mr. Jackson wanted to get this case 23 behind him and pursue his music career? And indeed, 24 all kinds of advisors were telling him to do that. 25 You have parents playing each other off with the 26 child and pursuing collateral litigation, all of 27 that will obviously have to be explored, because the 28 potential for financial interest, financial bias in 3760 1 a situation like that, is enormous, the motives for 2 financial gain were enormous, and indeed, there was 3 never any criminal prosecution despite Mr. Sneddon's 4 noble efforts to try and do one. 5 So there's no alleged victim with Brett 6 Barnes. There's no alleged victim with Jordie 7 Chandler. Then we come to Macaulay Culkin, who has 8 repeatedly made statements that he's a friend of Mr. 9 Jackson and has never been molested. But they want 10 to bring in evidence that he was molested. And they 11 want to bring in witnesses who also were part of the 12 gang that sued Mr. Jackson, and lost, with findings 13 that they had lied and with enormous damages awarded 14 against them. 15 Now, the fourth alleged victim is Jason 16 Francia. Jason Francia and his mother were 17 interviewed by the sheriffs and a deposition of the 18 mother was taken. Money was paid to settle that 19 case, again because Mr. Jackson didn't want the 20 press, didn't want his family going through it, and 21 wanted to pursue his music career. There never was 22 a criminal prosecution, even though the alleged 23 victim was interviewed by the Los Angeles District 24 Attorney and the Santa Barbara District Attorney 25 together. And after their interview with Jason 26 Francia - which was so wishy-washy about what 27 happened, they never decided to pursue a criminal 28 case, because there wasn't one. We have that taped 3761 1 interview - the mother, in a civil deposition in the 2 Chandler litigation, began by saying she saw 3 something and ended by saying she saw nothing. And 4 indeed, stories were sold to tabloids, and money was 5 paid to settle. He appears to be the only alleged 6 victim they want to bring in. 7 Five, Wade Robeson, who tells us nothing 8 ever happened to him. And they don't propose to 9 bring him in as an alleged victim. They want to 10 bring in the gang that basically has tried to accuse 11 Mr. Jackson and get money from him for years, 12 generally unsuccessfully, with the exception of 13 Miss -- Mr. Francia's mother, and I've just talked 14 about the problems in her sworn statement in 15 discovery. The deposition is clear, she begins by 16 saying, "I think I saw something." She ends by 17 saying, "I didn't see anything." 18 Six, Jimmy Safechuck, who we are informed 19 says nothing happened. They don't propose to call 20 him as an alleged victim either, but they've got the 21 same old gang again coming in to try and capitalize 22 on the case, people who have been adjudged to be 23 liars, and they are. People who asked for money 24 from tabloids, who've asked for money from Mr. 25 Jackson, et cetera. 26 Seven, Jonathan Spence, who we are informed 27 says nothing happened and doesn't intend to come in 28 to support them at all. What do they want to do? 3762 1 Bring in the same crew again. Third-party witnesses 2 with an axe to grind, all of whom have wanted money 3 in the past, none of whom can substantiate that 4 anything happened because the alleged victim says 5 nothing happened. 6 The bulk of their 1108 evidence, Your Honor, 7 are third parties with axes to grind, and who have 8 tried to get money, and gotten money, and had the 9 problems I just identified. Where is the fairness 10 in allowing that kind of testimony, that kind of 11 evidence, when their underlying case looks so weak 12 and so problematic? 13 I submit that the Court's concern for 14 fairness has to be squarely addressed in this 15 situation. 16 If the Court saw witnesses who the Court 17 felt had complete integrity, had never lied, never 18 told inconsistencies, never contradicted themselves, 19 never contradicted each other, if there were 20 forensics to support any of them, or eyewitnesses to 21 support any of them, the Court might say to himself, 22 you know, "I'm really not giving Mr. Jackson an 23 unfair trial if I let some of this in." But it's 24 just the opposite. 25 And I submit the weakness and the problems 26 in their case have made the Court's decision much 27 more difficult. 28 There is an issue, Your Honor, that Mr. 3763 1 Sneddon has raised by proposing to call third-party 2 witnesses without the alleged victims. And that has 3 to do with what is an offense. Because the statute, 4 1108, talks in terms of an offense. And every 5 definition we can find of an offense talks in terms 6 of a crime. 7 And I submit to the Court that if you look 8 at what the legal definition of an offense is, or 9 you look at what the legal definition of proving a 10 crime is, how can you just allow a parade of 11 third-party characters to come in without any 12 alleged victim? How can you do that? Because even 13 though they didn't charge it as a crime, they still 14 have to prove an offense. And I submit this Court, 15 in the interests of fairness, given the problems 16 with their case, I think has a duty to say to 17 itself, "Can they really prove some type of offense, 18 or some type of uncharged crime, based on what 19 they've told us?" And the Court knows they can't. 20 They can't do it. 21 According to the statute, and I'm talking 22 about 1108, sexual offense means a crime under the 23 law of the state or of the United States. How do 24 you prove a crime in these cases without any alleged 25 victim? And maybe that explains why there never was 26 a criminal prosecution in those cases, because the 27 alleged victim say it didn't happen. 28 I submit, Your Honor, that Evidence Code 352 3764 1 is extremely broad. Just because Mr. Sneddon 2 parades a lot of cases where the introduction of 3 1108 evidence has been upheld, doesn't mean there 4 haven't been many instances where trial judges 5 didn't use their discretion and either eliminate or 6 whittle down what the prosecution would allow, 7 because 352 is very, very clear. The Court must be 8 concerned with all the issues raised in 352. 9 And I would like to just briefly talk about 10 the People v. Falsetta case, where the California 11 Supreme Court upheld Evidence Code 1108. Here are 12 the issues the Court said the trial judge must 13 consider: Possible remoteness. Now, if you listen 14 to Mr. Sneddon, the words "possible remoteness" mean 15 nothing. They don't require any common sense 16 approach. They don't require any common sense 17 consideration. If you listen to Mr. Sneddon, he 18 cites appellate cases which basically say possible 19 remoteness just doesn't have any meaning, and that's 20 not what the California Supreme Court said. The 21 fact is, the issue of possible remoteness is in the 22 discretion of you, Your Honor. And they can't 23 eliminate it by citing what other Appellate Court 24 decisions have done. 25 Now, they're trying to bring in evidence of 26 many, many years ago, '92, '93. This is the year 27 2005. The statute is clear and the Supreme Court's 28 language is clear. If the Court thinks that these 3765 1 alleged acts are too remote in time to really create 2 real evidence of a pattern, and particularly if the 3 Court says, "I think their case has enough problems, 4 to bring in evidence of a remote nature is going to 5 tip the scales away from their burden of proof, away 6 from the presumption of innocence," I think the 7 Court has every right and every duty to consider if 8 these acts appear to be remote. And acts from the 9 early '90s, uncharged, unproven, where everyone had 10 their hand out for a buck, and where alleged victims 11 aren't even willing to come forward and say anything 12 happened, in fact, they're saying the opposite, I 13 think all of that put together gives the Court a 14 good basis to use its discretion in deciding whether 15 or not these alleged acts are too remote in time. 16 In People v. Falsetta, our Supreme Court 17 then talked about the degree of certainty of its 18 commission. How can they possibly stand before this 19 Court and say, "We can establish a degree of 20 certainty of the commission of these alleged 21 offenses," when no alleged victim is even willing to 22 come forward and say it happened? How do you 23 possibly convince this Court that their claims are 24 certain when there is no victim to say they're 25 certain? I submit this Court must consider not only 26 the possible remoteness in time, but the degree of 27 certainty of its commission, particularly when they 28 have no alleged victims to come forward. 3766 1 Then there's the issue of the likelihood of 2 confusing, misleading or distracting the jurors from 3 their main inquiry. Obviously the evidence they 4 want to bring in has nothing directly to do with the 5 Arvizo family, who, yes, Mr. Sneddon is correct, by 6 the time the trial ends, their reputations and their 7 fraudulent acts will be all over the courtroom. The 8 best is yet to come, because the mother hasn't 9 testified to her perjury in depositions, and her 10 perjury on welfare applications, and her defrauding 11 disability, and her defrauding welfare and not 12 telling either one what they're doing, where she put 13 the money, what she said to newspapers, what she 14 said to certain celebrities, et cetera. The best is 15 yet to come. 16 But nevertheless, why allow them to bring in 17 disgruntled employees who lost their lawsuit and 18 actually were found by a jury to have stolen from 19 Mr. Jackson and found by a Judge that they must pay 20 over a million in legal fees and costs? Why allow 21 them to come in when there is no alleged victim to 22 support anything they say? That would be highly 23 prejudicial and highly improper, Your Honor. And to 24 say it would prolong this trial is an 25 understatement. Because every time one of these 26 people comes in, we not only cross-examine them, we 27 have to bring in our own witnesses to contradict 28 what they say. And let's look at the numbers. 3767 1 One, Brett Barnes, who they say is not 2 coming in. They want to bring in four witnesses. 3 Two, Jordie Chandler, they want to bring in five 4 witnesses. Three, Macaulay Culkin, they want to 5 bring in four witnesses. Four, Jason Francia, they 6 want to bring in himself and his mother. Five, Wade 7 Robeson, they want to bring in five witnesses. Six, 8 Jimmy Safechuck, they want to bring in one, two, 9 three, four, five, six, seven -- eight witnesses. 10 Seven, Jonathan Spence, they want to bring in three 11 witnesses. 12 How can they possibly suggest this is not 13 going to prolong this trial interminably, because as 14 the Court knows, under the law, the defense has a 15 right to defend these allegations like it would any 16 other case. And there's no reason to think these 17 alleged offenses would not be defended as vigorously 18 as the case before the Court is being defended, 19 because you can't deny a criminally accused in a 20 situation like this the right for a full-blown 21 opposition and a full-blown defense to these types 22 of allegations. So how Mr. Sneddon can look at the 23 Court and say, "Oh, it will just take maybe 25 24 percent of our time," is absurd. It's going to 25 prolong this trial interminably because we have to 26 defend our client's reputation and life in this very 27 serious situation. 28 I've talked about prejudice, and prejudice 3768 1 again is always defined in terms of emotion. And 2 with a problematic case like this, the problem with 3 the emotional effect of 1108 evidence is vastly 4 increased. So I think the Court, again, has to come 5 back to where we started. We start with the Court's 6 concern for fairness and justice, particularly with 7 respect to what their case looks like, and I submit 8 it looks real bad and it's going to get worse. 9 The Supreme Court, in People v. Falsetta, 10 Your Honor talked about the Court considering less 11 prejudicial alternatives to its outright admission. 12 Well, how to fashion a less prejudicial alternative 13 obviously sounds problematic, because again, you 14 can't hamstring the defense and not let them put on 15 a full-blown defense to any allegation, no matter 16 how flimsy it may seem to be. And when I say, "put 17 on a defense," I do mean exactly that. Anything 18 which impeaches the credibility is open season. If 19 their character or reputation for trustworthiness, 20 as it is in this courthouse, given the trial judge's 21 rulings in that civil case is certainly fair game. 22 Their financial motive is certainly fair game. Who 23 they sold their stories to is fair game. You're 24 talking about a full-blown trial where prior 25 statements, prior testimony, prior transcripts are 26 all open season for the defense to defend and 27 protect itself. 28 I think the Court should never allow them to 3769 1 bring in any of this evidence if they don't have an 2 alleged victim to support it. And they just don't. 3 They want to bring in people to say, "I saw 4 something. I heard something." That simply is not 5 acceptable. The potential prejudicial impact of 6 that is far outweighed, far outweighs the benefits 7 to our justice system, or any benefits the Court 8 might think they're entitled to under the law, 9 particularly in a weak case. 10 The Court talks about excluding irrelevant 11 though inflammatory details surrounding the offense. 12 Well, they've already -- Mr. Sneddon's argument has 13 already suggested an avalanche of time-consuming 14 litigation in this courtroom, because what he's 15 saying is that if Mr. Jackson spends money on 16 someone like a mother - and indeed, Mr. Chandler's 17 mother flew to Europe with him, stayed in luxury 18 hotels, Monte Carlo, France; big events; buying 19 jewelry at Cartier, clothes, gifts - yes, indeed, 20 Mr. Jackson has done that to certain families. He 21 also has spent millions on children with AIDS. He 22 has gone to hospitals all over the world and 23 contributed money to sick children. He even has a 24 habit of doing that before a concert. He will go to 25 hospitals and meet injured and sick children. Yes, 26 he spends lots of money on people. 27 But they want to suggest that because he 28 spends money on somebody, that he somehow is doing 3770 1 this with a malevolent criminal, molester's type of 2 purpose. And we can drown them with examples of 3 where Mr. Jackson has been so benevolent, so 4 generous, so charitable, so giving for good causes, 5 that it will make their theory look silly. 6 The Court is already faced with a long 7 trial, Your Honor. You really are. We're talking 8 about probably months more of testimony. They 9 haven't essentially, I think, from what I've heard, 10 really gotten to the crux of their conspiracy 11 allegations. They've alluded to it by having the 12 Arvizo children testify that they were falsely 13 imprisoned three times at Neverland and went back 14 every time and then just went home. They've alluded 15 to it by having the Arvizo children testify to what 16 they knew about a proposed Brazil trip. And of 17 course when nobody wanted to go, they went home. 18 And they've already alluded to the Arvizo children 19 being falsely imprisoned while they went to shopping 20 centers, while they were at their home where 21 Miss Arvizo's boyfriend was in the United States 22 Army, while they had access to phones, while they 23 went into federal agencies, while they went into a 24 Brazilian consulate, and nobody ever says, "We have 25 a problem," or calls the police, or does anything. 26 Unless -- and I don't think -- 27 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Counsel. 28 I'm going to object, Your Honor. This is 3771 1 way off the issues that are before the Court in this 2 particular hearing. Counsel is just making his 3 final argument in front of the Court or the media. 4 THE COURT: All right. We'll take our 5 morning break. 6 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 7 (Recess taken.) 8 THE COURT: The objection was sustained. Go 9 ahead. 10 MR. MESEREAU: I didn't hear you, Your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: The objection was sustained. Go 13 ahead. 14 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I just have a few 15 more points to make, and I will sit down. 16 On the issue of undue consumption of time, 17 I'd like to give the Court an example of what I'm 18 talking about. 19 One of the plaintiffs in that civil case 20 against Mr. Jackson where the plaintiffs lost and 21 were awarded -- Mr. Jackson was awarded over a 22 million dollars in legal fees and costs. But 23 someone named Adrienne McManus, her deposition, I am 24 informed, was taken eight times in that case. 25 That's just one witness. And apparently in her 26 trial transcripts, which we have, she is changing 27 her testimony so often that she gets back and forth, 28 the testimony is prolonged, and the point I'm making 3772 1 is that's just one witness. Eight depositions plus 2 six months of trial testimony. 3 In the Jordie Chandler civil case, you had 4 approximately five months of litigation before the 5 case settled. You had numerous depositions and 6 numerous pleadings in civil discovery that would be 7 relevant and usable. 8 Now, I want to emphasize something we said 9 in our papers. The testimony that the prosecutor 10 wants to introduce concerns seven alleged victims 11 with only one scheduled to testify. This testimony 12 has been presented to two criminal grand juries in 13 Los Angeles and Santa Barbara, neither of which ever 14 returned an Indictment, and it's been rejected by 15 one civil jury in the longest civil trial in the 16 history of this courthouse. 17 Now, I know the prosecutor likes to say, 18 "Well, those grand juries were purely investigative 19 only." But obviously the purpose, from Mr. 20 Sneddon's point of view, to the degree he controlled 21 anything, was to see if they could bring criminal 22 charges. And neither grand jury brought a criminal 23 charge. And many of the witnesses who -- not 24 "many," some of the witnesses who sued Mr. Jackson 25 in the civil case also testified in these grand 26 juries where no criminal charges were ever brought. 27 Now, there is evidence -- excuse me, there 28 is case law to the effect that if one is acquitted 3773 1 of a prior sexual offense, the evidence of the 2 acquittal is admissible. I haven't seen anything 3 about whether or not you can bring in the fact that 4 a grand jury refused to indict, but certainly the 5 fact that they went to two grand juries, there was 6 no Indictment, they went to a civil jury, they lost, 7 and the fact that they don't have alleged victims 8 with the exception of one, plus you're talking about 9 lengthy civil litigation, numerous depositions, 10 numerous pleadings, numerous witnesses, plus the 11 fact that the defendant has a right to defense as if 12 it were a separately charged crime, and that means 13 every type of defense imaginable, including 14 rebutting the character nature of the evidence, 15 which would mean opinion evidence, reputation 16 evidence, and maybe specific instances of conduct, 17 will unduly prolong the trial. 18 Finally, Your Honor, I will get back to 19 where I started. Evidence Code Section 352 is 20 sacrosanct in this courtroom. It is a fundamental 21 component of the statute of 1108. It gives this 22 Court enormous discretion to eliminate potential for 23 prejudice, for bias, for a prolongation of the trial 24 that would be unproductive and not in the public 25 interest. It allows this Court enormous discretion 26 to make sure issues aren't confused. It enables 27 this Court enormous discretion to make sure that the 28 burden of proof is not fundamentally changed, that 3774 1 the presumption of innocence remains intact, and 2 that Mr. Jackson has a fair trial. 3 For the reasons I've articulated, we're 4 asking that the prosecution's motion be denied in 5 its entirety. 6 Thank you. 7 THE COURT: Counsel? Rebuttal? 8 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I think that what 9 we've heard here this morning is something akin to a 10 pattern that we've seen in this case, and that is 11 reckless, exaggerated and misleading statements on 12 the part of counsel with regard to what he believes 13 the evidence and the testimony has produced so far 14 in this case, and similar to ones he's made in 15 opening statement, and I say this for this reason. 16 I'm not going to get into a contest of saying what 17 we believe the evidence has shown or what the 18 credibility of the witnesses are to this Court, 19 because this Court's been here and you've seen it 20 for yourself. But I am going to point out that 21 since Mr. Mesereau stood up in his opening statement 22 and made certain assertions to the jury in this 23 case, we've blown massive holes in his theory of 24 this case; the witnesses that he said was -- Janet 25 was going to do that and Janet was going to do that. 26 The fact of the matter is they're now 27 shifting gears from the original hypothesis to say, 28 well, "She wasn't directly involved," like I said in 3775 1 my opening statement, but now she's indirectly 2 involved. Because we've proved otherwise. 3 Similarly with the fingerprint evidence, you 4 know, the fingerprints were on there because the 5 kids touched it at the grand jury. Now we have the 6 evidence from the people to show that those 7 fingerprints were on magazines that weren't even in 8 the grand jury, so they couldn't have been put on 9 in the grand jury. Those magazines were at the 10 Department of Justice being examined for trace 11 evidence at the very time that the defense alleged 12 somebody put their fingerprints on them. 13 It's this kind of stuff that bothers me 14 about Mr. Mesereau's statements to the Court. But 15 rather than get in a point-by-point recitation, I'm 16 going to rely, as I have before, and we will to the 17 end of this case, that the Court can make up its own 18 mind about what the Court feels that the evidence 19 has produced in this case. 20 I will only say this, and this will be the 21 only thing I will say: Gavin Arvizo sat on that 22 witness stand for almost three days. The first day 23 he was on there for almost 40 minutes, and Mr. 24 Mesereau was as abusive, was as mean-spirited, and 25 was as obnoxious, frankly, as you could be to a 26 child witness in a case. He spent the next two and 27 a half days with binder after binder after binder 28 coming up here and asking things. That kid didn't 3776 1 have a piece of paper in front of him. Not a single 2 piece of paper. And I think it was a remarkable job 3 that that child did. He was never once tripped up 4 about the fundamental fact that the defendant in 5 this case molested him. 6 We produced evidence that have blown holes 7 in the defendant's case, from Palanker to Coleman, 8 and we'll have some this afternoon when the Lopezes 9 testify; that the defense has consistently 10 exaggerated, and misled the jury in this case, and 11 the Court. 12 With regard to the second part about the 13 civil case, I think, again, this is a case where 14 many of the things Mr. Mesereau said are completely 15 misleading. The first thing to understand is that 16 the issue in that case had nothing -- nothing, zero, 17 zilch, nada, nothing to do with child molestation 18 charges. That evidence was specifically excluded by 19 the Court. The depositions that make reference to 20 that information contain pages of probably less than 21 100 pages in that deposition devoted to that part of 22 it. The deposition mostly, and the trial, was 23 entirely devoted to issues of harassment, 24 intimidation, of illegal surveillance and monitoring 25 of conversations. It had nothing to do with the 26 facts of this case, as we're attempting to put 27 before the jury the uncharged offenses. Nothing. 28 It lasted six months because the defendant 3777 1 in that case persistently did not show up for long 2 periods of time. And unlike this Court, which took 3 a very firm rein on the defendant's inability to 4 show up on time, that Court did not. And that's why 5 that case lasted six months. 6 I think it's also important for this Court 7 to know that the information that we're putting 8 before this Court from the witnesses that are going 9 to testify is information that was produced before 10 that case was filed. And in fact, part of the 11 intimidation and the harassment allegations involved 12 in that lawsuit were the product of what happened 13 when these people cooperated with the Santa Barbara 14 District Attorney's Office and the Santa Barbara 15 Grand Jury. But the fact of the matter is that the 16 statements that were made, were made prior to the 17 time of the lawsuit, and were made at or about the 18 time of the investigation, and to law enforcement 19 officers. 20 I think once and for all, I would like to -- 21 because I was the one involved in it, to put to rest 22 the thing that Mr. Mesereau keeps saying over and 23 over and over again, as if he says it enough times 24 that somehow it's going to become the truth. It 25 isn't the truth. It isn't factually correct. And 26 it's simply false. 27 The grand juries -- there weren't two 28 separate grand juries. They were a grand jury 3778 1 impaneled to hear some witnesses, for the 2 convenience of those witnesses, in Los Angeles, and 3 there were some witnesses that were heard in Santa 4 Barbara County. None of those witnesses, nor were 5 there any indications to either one of those grand 6 juries that an Indictment was being sought. And 7 never was there any request for an Indictment, or 8 any charges, or any information in any smallest 9 scintilla of a way presented to those grand juries. 10 The fact of the matter is, the grand juries 11 never considered it simply because at that point in 12 time, Jordan Chandler decided that he was not going 13 to cooperate any further with the law enforcement 14 agencies. And at that point, the grand jury, with 15 regard to most of those witnesses, was completely 16 shut down. 17 Which brings me to another one of counsel's 18 points, that somehow we can't prove a case because 19 we don't have a victim. Well, then I guess we would 20 never be able to prove a murder case then, would we? 21 Because we sure as heck can't put the victim on the 22 stand. And yet on the one hand, the defense 23 attorney tells me that one of the reasons we have a 24 real problem here is because we have Gavin Arvizo on 25 the stand and we have no corroboration and we have 26 no eyewitnesses. Yet when we have an eyewitness, 27 it's no good anymore and we can't call them. 28 Well, you can't have it both ways. You 3779 1 simply can't have it both ways. And you simply 2 can't ignore the fact that the very things that the 3 defense attorney's talking about in this case, 4 there's no DNA and there's no eyewitnesses, are the 5 very reasons that the legislature says specifically 6 that 1108 evidence is admissible. 7 And what would you expect, nine months 8 later? Of course, they never bother to say that. 9 Oh, there's no DNA. Nine months later? There's no 10 underpants found nine months later? The very 11 underpants that the child left there because the 12 defendant asked him to leave them there. Would you 13 reasonably believe that nine months later that that 14 stuff would be there? That they didn't wash the 15 sheets for nine months on that bed? That's 16 preposterous, and yet this is a reason why this 17 evidence shouldn't come in. 18 Somehow we're to be penalized because 19 victims don't want to show up. They don't want to 20 go through what Gavin Arvizo went through. It takes 21 a lot of courage to do what that young lad did. And 22 I don't think -- as Urquiza said in his testimony, 23 most children don't ever, in their entire life, 24 disclose. And it's not a far stretch to believe 25 that the reason they don't disclose is for the very 26 reasons that we've seen in this courtroom; that no 27 family and no child wants to go through what you 28 have to go through to be vindicated when you're 3780 1 molested by an adult, by somebody you trust and 2 somebody you loved at one point in time, as somebody 3 you cared for. They put it behind themselves and 4 they move on with their lives. Their lives aren't 5 always the same, but that's what they do. 6 With regard to Mr. Jones, counsel is 7 correct, Mr. Jones has now recanted what he said. 8 However, Mr. Jones is in the unenviable position of 9 the fact that we have two witnesses to whom he made 10 the statement, and more importantly than that, we 11 have his own writings where he describes the 12 incident in detail. So it's true, I don't know what 13 he's going to say when he takes the witness stand, 14 but the fact of the matter is, he's pinned down 15 pretty strongly to what he saw, who the 16 circumstances were, and who the children and the 17 family involved were. 18 I guess I want to just end by saying one 19 other thing. I'm just not going to get involved in 20 debating the issue of where we are in this case. I 21 think as far as we're concerned, we're very pleased 22 with where we are in this case, and pleased with the 23 way the victims have held up and the family's held 24 up. 25 And I know Mr. Mesereau has made a lot of 26 allegations about what's going to come with Janet 27 Arvizo when she takes the stand, but I hope he does 28 a better job than he has with the assertions he made 3781 1 in his opening statement with regard to certain 2 witnesses who claim she's running around with her 3 hand out all the time, because not one single 4 witness in this case has said that yet. 5 But the fact of the matter is -- if you 6 notice, Mr. Mesereau talked a lot about facts. But 7 we're lawyers. And the fact of the matter is, when 8 a Court in your position is asked to make decisions 9 of law, decisions of admissibility, decisions on the 10 application of laws of the State of California as 11 enacted by the legislature, the fact of the matter 12 is, that the primary thing for this Court to look at 13 is what other courts have done, and even more 14 important than that, what have the higher courts in 15 this state done in cases of a similar or like 16 nature? 17 And the reason that I think that the defense 18 position not only in their written briefs to this 19 Court, but in Mr. Mesereau's recitation to you is 20 empty, totally empty of any evaluation or analysis 21 of the cases that we have cited to you probably 50 22 cases, in our brief, is the fact that none of them 23 support them, as a legal matter. None of them. And 24 I have not heard one word in this an attempt to 25 distinguish as a legal matter any of those cases 26 that we cited to this Court. 27 Why aren't any of those cases on remoteness 28 applicable here? Why aren't the issues on undue 3782 1 consumption, why is the law on inflammatory, on 2 prejudicial, why the cases we cited don't apply 3 here? 4 And I say to the Court that in the 5 decision-making position that you're in, this is 6 more than simply a factual analysis, it's the 7 applying of the facts that the Court knows them to 8 the legal principles that have been enunciated by 9 the state and the judiciary of the State of 10 California, that's the position that this Court is 11 in. And unfortunately for the defense, they're in 12 the position that they can't find a single case that 13 supports their position, and that is the bottom line 14 on everything that's gone on here this morning. 15 THE COURT: The arguments presented by both 16 sides here were very good arguments, and they're 17 arguments bringing up the law and the factors that 18 I've been working with trying to reach a decision in 19 this matter, which is of such great importance in 20 this case for both sides. 21 The arguments didn't really bring up new 22 material, but they definitely emphasized the 23 concerns that I've had. You know, the weighing of 24 the case as I've heard it, the remoteness of the 25 alleged charges that would come under 1108. 26 But ultimately the decision I've reached, 27 and which I'll now announce, is that I am going to 28 permit the testimony with regard to the sexual 3783 1 offenses, and the alleged pattern of grooming 2 activities, which is 1101 material, leading up to 3 the sexual offenses against Jason Francia, Wade 4 Robeson, Macaulay Culkin, Jordan Chandler, and Brett 5 Barnes. 6 The witnesses that would be permitted to 7 testify under this order would be Jason Francia, 8 Blanca Francia, Charlie Michaels, Phillip LeMarque, 9 Adrienne McManus, Ralph Chacon, June Chandler, Bob 10 Jones, and Charmayne Sternberg. The evidence of 11 alleged grooming of the other children will not be 12 permitted. Evidence as to Jimmy Safechuck and 13 Jonathan Spence will not be permitted. 14 The witnesses that would be precluded under 15 this ruling would be Jolie Levine and Mary Coller. 16 And there was only one part of Bob Jones' testimony 17 that I would consider admissible, that relating to 18 the one physical act that he observed. And some of 19 the testimony of Blanca Francia and June Chandler 20 and Charmayne Sternberg would not be admissible. 21 But I think if you can see the way I've 22 divided that up, the grooming testimony is limited 23 to those cases where there's actual physical sexual 24 conduct that's been observed by somebody. That 25 really is where I've drawn the line. 26 And just to give you an example, Mr. Jones' 27 observations over a long period of time were 28 conclusionary and opinions that I wouldn't allow 3784 1 based on what he didn't see. 2 All right. Now, the next item I want to 3 take up is the settlement issues of whether or not 4 the settlements are admissible. In the one case, 5 the Chandler case, I'm going to rule that the 6 evidence that there was a settlement may come in, 7 the amount may not. 8 The second issue on the other child, I'm not 9 sure -- Mr. Sneddon, in your papers, you related to 10 that. In your points and authorities, you related 11 to a claim that was settled. Was there a lawsuit or 12 not a lawsuit in that case? 13 MR. SNEDDON: There was not a lawsuit. It 14 was settled prior to the commencement of -- it was 15 settled in lieu of filing of a civil complaint. 16 THE COURT: It was settled under threat of 17 lawsuit type of settlement. 18 MR. SNEDDON: That's my understanding from 19 talking to the lawyer, yes, sir. Lawyers. 20 THE COURT: Well, again, the amount won't be 21 admissible except -- I say that it's not admissible 22 by the prosecution to prove anything. The defense, 23 if they want to raise the amount to prove 24 something -- it's not the same side -- it's not two 25 different sides of the same coin. It's in the 26 Court's opinion, the amount doesn't prove anything. 27 The settlement leaves inferences. For the defense, 28 though, the amount may prove something if they 3785 1 choose to use it. So I'm making a ruling that 2 applies one way to this side and the other way to 3 this side. That doesn't mean you have to, it just 4 means I'm not taking that away from you. I'm taking 5 it away from them. 6 Now, having said what my intended ruling is, 7 if anyone wants to address that, you may. 8 MR. MESEREAU: I think we're going to submit 9 at this point, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 11 MR. MESEREAU: We may -- 12 THE COURT: They can't hear you. They're all 13 waving. Either they can't hear or they just want 14 you to wave to them. 15 MR. MESEREAU: (Indicating). 16 I think we'll submit at this point, Your 17 Honor. We may ask for leave to revisit the issue in 18 the future. 19 THE COURT: Yes, you may. It probably won't 20 come up for a while. But sort of a secondary issue 21 here today, and -- okay, I don't think there's any 22 Other issue pending. 23 If we have nothing else, then we'll recess 24 until 11:30 when the jurors will be here. We'll 25 start as soon after 11:30 as we can, because we'll 26 have already had our break. 27 (Recess taken.) 28 --o0o-- 3786 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE ) 5 OF CALIFORNIA, ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7 -vs- ) No. 1133603 8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 9 Defendant. ) 10 11 12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, 13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby 14 certify: 15 That the foregoing pages 3728 through 3786 16 contain a true and correct transcript of the 17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled 18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at 19 said proceedings on March 28, 2005, and thereafter 20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided 21 transcription under my direction. 22 DATED: Santa Maria, California, 23 March 28, 2005. 24 25 26 27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 3787 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA 3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION 4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE 5 6 7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ) 8 CALIFORNIA, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 -vs- ) No. 1133603 11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 12 Defendant. ) 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 18 19 MONDAY, MARCH 28, 2005 20 21 8:30 A.M. 22 23 (PAGES 3788 THROUGH 3933) 24 25 26 27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 BY: Official Court Reporter 3788 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR., 4 District Attorney -and- 5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney 6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS, 7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney -and- 8 MAG NICOLA, Sr. Deputy District Attorney 9 1112 Santa Barbara Street Santa Barbara, California 93101 10 11 12 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU 13 BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ. -and- 14 SUSAN C. YU, ESQ. 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 15 Los Angeles, California 90067 16 -and- 17 SANGER & SWYSEN BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 18 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C Santa Barbara, California 93101 19 -and- 20 OXMAN and JAROSCAK 21 BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ. 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard 22 Santa Fe Springs, California 90670 23 24 For Witnesses George and Ann Serrano Lopez: 25 26 CARLSMITH BALL LLC BY: JAMES E. BLANCARTE, ESQ. 27 444 South Flower Street, 9th Floor Los Angeles, California 90071 28 3789 1 I N D E X 2 3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as "SN" on index. 4 Mr. Zonen is listed as "Z" on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as "A" on index. 5 Mr. Nicola is listed as "N" on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as "M" on index. 6 Ms. Yu is listed as "Y" on index. Mr. Sanger is listed as "SA" on index. 7 Mr. Oxman is listed as "O" on index. 8 9 PLAINTIFF'S 10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 11 LOPEZ, George 3793-Z 3816-M 3847-Z 12 LOPEZ, Ann Serrano 3854-Z 3873-M 3898-Z 13 SPINNER, Robert 3901-N 14 (Re-called) (Reopened) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 3790 1 E X H I B I T S 2 3 FOR IN PLAINTIFF'S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID. 4 622 Timeline (Sergeant Spinner) 3902 3913 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 3791 1 (The following proceedings were held in 2 open court in the presence and hearing of the 3 jury:) 4 5 THE COURT: Good morning. 6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning. 7 THE COURT: Counsel, you ready to proceed? 8 MR. ZONEN: Yes, Your Honor. We've asked 9 permission of the Court, by stipulation of both 10 sides, to take a witness out of order because of his 11 schedule, if we could. 12 THE COURT: You may do that. 13 MR. ZONEN: We would call George Lopez to 14 the stand, please. 15 THE COURT: Come forward, please. When you 16 get to the witness stand, remain standing. 17 Face the clerk here, and raise your right 18 hand. 19 20 GEORGE LOPEZ 21 Having been sworn, testified as follows: 22 23 THE WITNESS: I do. 24 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and 25 spell your name for the record. 26 THE WITNESS: George Lopez; G-e-o-r-g-e, 27 L-o-p-e-z. 28 THE CLERK: Thank you. 3792 1 MR. ZONEN: May I proceed? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. ZONEN: 6 Q. Mr. Lopez, good morning. 7 A. Good morning. 8 Q. Sir, what is your current occupation? 9 A. I'm a comedian/actor. 10 Q. And do you have a television show at this 11 time? 12 A. I do, named "George Lopez," on ABC. 13 Q. How long has that show been in progress? 14 A. The show has been on for four years. 15 Q. You're expected to go on for another four? 16 A. I'd like three more, and then to retire. 17 Q. Mr. Lopez, prior to going on television, 18 what were you doing professionally? 19 A. I was a host of a radio program in Los 20 Angeles, which was on 92.3, Mega 92.3, in the 21 morning. 22 Q. For what period of time did you do that? 23 A. From November of '99 to August of 2000. 24 Q. Have you been a stand-up comic for some 25 period of time? 26 A. 25 years. 27 Q. Are you familiar with The Laugh Factory in 28 Los Angeles? 3793 1 A. Yes, sir, I am. 2 Q. And where is The Laugh Factory? 3 A. It's located on Sunset Boulevard -- 4 Q. Is that -- 5 A. -- in Hollywood. 6 Q. Is that a nightclub that features comedians? 7 A. It is. 8 Q. And have you performed there? 9 A. Many times. 10 Q. Over what period of time have you performed 11 at The Laugh Factory? 12 A. I've probably performed there over the last 13 15 years. 14 Q. Do you know Jamie Masada? 15 A. Yes, sir, I do. 16 Q. What is Mr. Masada's association with The 17 Laugh Factory? 18 A. He's the owner of The Laugh Factory. 19 Q. Are there other Laugh Factories other than 20 the one on Sunset in Los Angeles? 21 A. I understand he opened one in New York. 22 Q. Have you ever appeared at the one in New 23 York? 24 A. I have not. 25 Q. What is the comedy camp that's associated 26 with The Laugh Factory? What's that? 27 A. Well, Jamie Masada, for years, has had a 28 program where they took underprivileged youth and 3794 1 used comedians who worked the club as kind of 2 mentors to the kids, and they would teach them 3 stand-up, and also, you know, give them something to 4 do, you know, with writing jokes, and performing, 5 and stuff. And it was available during the day when 6 nothing really was going on at The Laugh Factory. 7 Q. Do comedians periodically come by and assist 8 with mentoring the children? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. What's the criteria for being a child 11 attending that club? 12 A. I think Jamie puts it out, and all -- you 13 don't really need to pay anything, it's just whether 14 you're interested and have, you know, a way to get 15 to The Laugh Factory, you can sign up. 16 Q. Do you know if these are children that are 17 either at risk or disadvantaged in some fashion? 18 A. Most of the time they're at risk and 19 underprivileged youth. 20 Q. Do you know how many years Mr. Masada has 21 been running the comedy camp? 22 A. It seems, to me, he's been doing it for 23 about seven or eight years. 24 Q. Does he periodically solicit the assistance 25 of the comedians from the entertainment community? 26 A. Yes, sir. 27 Q. And are you one of them? 28 A. I am one of them. 3795 1 Q. How many times -- and perhaps "times" is not 2 quite the right way to ask it, but on which 3 occasions have you assisted in working with the kids 4 at comedy camp? 5 A. Over the years I've been asked several 6 times. And I've only performed -- participated one 7 time, and that was in the fall of '99. 8 Q. And by "one time," does that mean one single 9 occasion, or one camp? 10 A. One camp. 11 Q. And that's for a period of time of how long, 12 then? 13 A. Probably -- probably seven weeks. 14 Q. All right. Were you there for the bulk of 15 those weeks? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Do you know the Arvizo family? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. And do you know the children who are members 20 of the Arvizo family? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. How do you know them? 23 A. Jamie asked me if I would participate in the 24 camp; that there was a special Latino family that 25 was underprivileged and they had requested me, and, 26 you know, it was a sister and two brothers. And I 27 said yes. 28 Q. What are their names? 3796 1 A. Davellin, Gavin and Star Arvizo. 2 Q. And for what period of time did you work 3 with those three kids? 4 A. I worked with them in the fall, probably 5 from the middle of November through the end -- the 6 middle of October till the end of November. 7 Q. What year was that; do you recall? 8 A. I think it was '99. 9 Q. Okay. How old were the kids, as best you 10 recall? 11 A. I think Davellin was probably 15. Star was, 12 I think, nine or ten. And Gavin was 11. 13 Q. How did they do in the comedy camp? 14 A. They were pretty good. They were fearless. 15 So, you know, they talked about a lot of things that 16 I talked about, coming from an underprivileged 17 background. And, you know, they were fearless in 18 their performing. And they were kind of very sweet, 19 you know, and very kind. 20 Q. Did you work with them the entirety of that 21 time? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. Did you work with other kids, or just those 24 three? 25 A. I did not. Just those three. 26 Q. How many sessions do you think you had with 27 them? 28 A. You know, probably like seven. On Mondays, 3797 1 from like 3:00 in the afternoon to about 5:00. Just 2 two hours a week. 3 Q. Did you get to meet their mother? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. What is her name? 6 A. Her name is Janet. 7 Q. All right. Over the same period of time, 8 did you see her? 9 A. You know, I only saw Janet during the period 10 of time that we spent at The Laugh Factory. 11 Q. Was she there every time? 12 A. She was there. 13 Q. With the kids? 14 A. Every time. 15 Q. Do you know how they got there? 16 A. They took the bus. 17 Q. Did that impress you in some way? 18 A. Absolutely. I mean, you know, anybody that 19 rides the bus in Los Angeles is a hero to me. 20 (Laughter.) 21 Q. Do you know from how far away they were 22 coming? 23 A. They came from -- from East Los Angeles. 24 Q. To Hollywood; is that correct? 25 A. To Hollywood. 26 Q. During the period of time that you knew the 27 Arvizos in association with The Laugh Factory, did 28 Janet Arvizo ever ask you for any assistance in any 3798 1 way? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did she ever ask you for money in any way? 4 A. No. 5 Q. This went on for a period of how many 6 months, to your knowledge? 7 A. Well, the whole time that I've known the 8 Arvizo family, it was probably eight months. 9 Q. Did you ever meet the kids' father during 10 the time that the kids were at the comedy camp? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what is his name? 13 A. His name is David. 14 Q. At some point in time, did you become aware 15 of the fact that one of the children became ill, 16 seriously ill? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And how did that come about? 19 A. I got a phone call from Janet on my cell 20 phone, and, you know, as any mother would be, 21 completely distraught and was asking for help. And 22 I went to the hospital as soon as I found out that 23 Gavin was as sick as he was. 24 Q. The call then came from Janet? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And did you then go to the hospital? 27 A. I did. 28 Q. And what did you find when you got there? 3799 1 A. Well, I found Gavin in dire condition. I 2 mean, he was really just clinging to life. And 3 that's when I met David. I had never seen him 4 before until I showed up at the hospital. 5 Q. You didn't meet him during the time -- maybe 6 I'm wrong about this. During the time that the kids 7 were at the camp, at the comedy camp, that period of 8 a couple months -- 9 A. Right. 10 Q. -- did you meet David Arvizo? 11 A. I did not. 12 Q. You met him for the first time at the 13 hospital? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know approximately how long after the 16 completion of the comedy camp it was that Gavin 17 became ill? 18 A. Probably six weeks. 19 Q. When you went to the hospital, did you go by 20 yourself or with somebody else? 21 A. I took my wife with me. 22 Q. And your wife's name is? 23 A. Ann. 24 Q. Did you return to the hospital on other 25 occasions to visit with Gavin? 26 A. Yes, I did. 27 Q. Over what period of time do you believe you 28 went to the hospital? 3800 1 A. Over the next four months. 2 Q. Did you ever visit him at other locations 3 besides at the hospital? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Where did you visit him? 6 A. I visited him at his home in El Monte. 7 Q. All right. Do you know this to be his home 8 or his grandparents' home? 9 A. I think it was his grandparents' home. 10 Q. Can you describe that home in El Monte for 11 us? 12 A. It was a tract home in El Monte that -- it 13 was one of those places where -- probably a 14 two-bedroom house where the living and kitchen blend 15 into the same room, and it probably had every stick 16 of furniture they'd ever owned in it. And it had 17 this one room that looked like a suite out of the 18 Four Seasons. 19 Q. And what room was that? 20 A. That was Gavin's room. 21 Q. And the rest of the house? 22 A. Reminiscent of my own childhood. Very -- 23 you know, kind of plastic over the couch, and 24 plastic runners on the floor, and birds, and dogs, 25 and things like that. 26 Q. Modest? 27 A. Modest, to say the least. 28 Q. All right. And the one room that Gavin was 3801 1 in, describe that for us, as best you can. 2 A. That room was prepared for Gavin because he 3 was coming out of the hospital. I think Jamie had 4 made it so that he could get a hospital bed. And it 5 was -- the carpet was removed, and it was kind of 6 like a cleanroom, like a place you'd go and it was 7 sanitary. I think you even had to wear a robe to 8 get in. 9 Q. For the entirety of that time that Gavin was 10 ill that you were visiting him, did you have contact 11 with his father? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Did you have contact with his mother during 14 that time? 15 A. I did not. 16 Q. Can you explain that? Do you know why? 17 A. You know, I don't know why. When Gavin was 18 at The Laugh Factory, I dealt with the mother. And 19 as soon as he got sick, the mother -- I never saw 20 the mother again, and the only person I saw was the 21 father. 22 Q. Did you ever speak with her on the 23 telephone? 24 A. I did not. 25 Q. Did she ever contact you other than the 26 initial phone call to tell you that Gavin was sick? 27 A. No. 28 Q. Did she ever ask you for money? 3802 1 A. She did not. 2 Q. During your dealings with the father at that 3 point, during the number of months that Gavin was 4 ill, did he ever ask you for assistance in any way? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And when do you think was the first time, if 7 you know? 8 A. Probably the first time was maybe February 9 or March of 2000, approximately. Yeah, around 10 there. 11 Q. But this was after Gavin became ill already? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And in what way did he ask for assistance? 14 A. Well, you know, he made it known that he 15 was, you know, strapped for cash. And at that 16 point, I would help him with whatever I had on me. 17 You know, I'd give him, you know, $40, $50 if I had 18 it. Whatever I had, you know. 19 I would bring things to the hospital to try 20 to get Gavin to eat, you know, different kind of 21 drinks and stuff, energy drinks and things like 22 that. 23 Q. On the two occasions that you went to the 24 house in El Monte, did you see Janet on either of 25 those occasions? 26 A. I did not. 27 Q. Did you ask where she was? 28 A. You know, I did not. I just assumed that 3803 1 she was working. I think she was a waitress, so 2 when I didn't see her around Gavin, I just assumed 3 that she was working. 4 Q. Did you ever ask David why Janet wasn't at 5 the hospital? 6 A. I did not. 7 Q. During the period of time that Gavin was at 8 the hospital, did you ever see Janet there? 9 A. I never saw her at the hospital. 10 Q. Okay. Now, the requests for money from 11 David, was that a frequent request from him? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did you give him money on a fairly 14 regular basis? 15 A. Yes. Well, I wouldn't call it fairly 16 regular. On occasion, I would say. 17 Q. How much would you give him? 18 A. You know, 40 here. Whatever I had. 30, 20. 19 I bought him a pair of shoes one time. Stuff like 20 that. But never, you know, a check for $10,000. 21 Q. Did you become aware of the fact that there 22 was a fund-raiser, or maybe a couple fund-raisers, 23 being organized at The Laugh Factory? 24 A. I was aware that there was a single 25 fund-raiser. 26 Q. Is this a fund-raiser that you participated 27 in? 28 A. You know, I -- I have to say I don't recall. 3804 1 Q. Have you participated in fund-raisers at The 2 Laugh Factory before? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is that something that's frequent at that 5 location? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. When fund-raisers are held at The Laugh 8 Factory, or any of the other entertainment clubs in 9 Los Angeles, is there a way in which they do that? 10 Is there kind of a traditional way that they raise 11 money? 12 A. Well, the way they do it is Jamie would ask 13 comedians to perform, and really that's your only 14 obligation. You show up, you perform, and that's 15 it. You're not -- really don't understand where the 16 money goes to or any of that aspect of it. You're 17 just there to really give your time. And then 18 whatever they collect goes to whoever the 19 beneficiary is of the fund-raiser. 20 Q. And by "what they collect," what is it that 21 they're actually collecting? 22 A. The donation at the door, whatever the price 23 of the ticket is. 24 Q. All right. And can that vary? 25 A. Oh, yeah. 26 Q. They can make it whatever they want? 27 A. Whatever it is. 28 Q. All right. Did David talk with you about 3805 1 doing a fund-raiser on his behalf, or, rather, his 2 child's behalf? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what was the nature of that discussion? 5 What is it that he was asking you to do? 6 A. He was asking me to take care of a 7 fund-raiser for Gavin, which I was more than happy 8 to do. But then it became apparent to me that it 9 wasn't about Gavin anymore. I was about how Gavin 10 was and how he was feeling. I wasn't about money 11 for Gavin. And it seemed to me at that time that 12 David Arvizo was more interested in the money than 13 he was about his son. 14 Q. All right. Was David working at the time, 15 to your knowledge? 16 A. To my knowledge, I don't think he was 17 working. 18 Q. Did he ever express to you any concerns 19 about insurance, medical insurance? 20 A. I was always led to believe that they had no 21 insurance whatsoever. 22 Q. All right. And that was from David? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. You never had a conversation with Janet 25 about that subject? 26 A. Never. 27 Q. She never asked you for money? 28 A. Never did. 3806 1 Q. All right. Did you come to an understanding 2 with David that you would assist in some kind of a 3 fund-raising effort? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And -- go ahead. That -- 6 A. Okay. Thanks. 7 THE BAILIFF: You have to -- there you go. 8 THE WITNESS: (To the court reporter) 9 Hello. 10 Uh-huh. 11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What was the nature of the 12 fund-raiser that you were going to do, and where? 13 A. I was going to do a fund-raiser and use the 14 radio to raise money for Gavin and I was going to do 15 it at The Ice House in Pasadena. And I was going to 16 take care -- I was going to do it myself. I was 17 going to plan the whole thing. And because of my 18 schedule at the radio, we kind of got a little 19 behind. And David became, you know, pretty 20 aggressive about when it was going to happen and how 21 much he thought we could raise and that kind of 22 stuff. 23 Q. What do you mean by "pretty aggressive"? 24 A. A lot of phone calls. A lot of, "When's it 25 going to happen?" And, I said, you know, "I'm 26 working right now, man. We're trying to put it 27 together. We're trying to get guys to perform." 28 And every call was about the same thing. 3807 1 Q. Did he always inquire about the money that 2 you would raise? 3 A. Yes, he did. 4 Q. Did he ask about specific amounts? 5 A. Yeah, he did. He asked about how much I 6 thought we could raise. 7 Q. What did you tell him? 8 A. I told him that with those things, you never 9 know. I mean, you never know how much you're going 10 to raise. And really, when I do fund-raisers, it 11 was never about, "How much money do you think you 12 could raise?" It was about getting it off 13 succesfully. It wasn't about the bottom line. It 14 was about doing a fund-raiser. 15 Q. Did he ever talk to you about doing a blood 16 drive on behalf of his son? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And when was that going to be? 19 A. When -- when we -- when we found out Gavin 20 was -- was ill and needed blood, my wife was 21 instrumental in kind of arranging a smaller blood 22 drive for Gavin. 23 Q. Okay. Was that something that involved 24 David Arvizo -- 25 A. I don't believe so. 26 Q. -- or did that involve your wife? 27 A. My wife. 28 Q. That wasn't requested by David? 3808 1 A. It was not. 2 Q. Do you know if Janet Arvizo had anything to 3 do with that? 4 A. I don't think so. 5 Q. Okay. Was that done at The Laugh Factory, 6 or someplace else? 7 A. You know, I think it was done at the Red 8 Cross. And you just say that the blood is going to 9 a certain person. That's how they do it. 10 Q. Now, as the -- as time went on in 11 preparation for this benefit at The Ice House, did 12 you get more and more calls? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. More and more frequently? 15 A. I did. Yes. 16 Q. Was he asking pretty much the same thing? 17 A. Always. 18 Q. You've dealt with other benefits for other 19 people in need, have you not? 20 A. Yes, I have. 21 Q. Was there something unique about David's 22 behavior as compared to the others? 23 A. Yeah. I mean, the guy was like -- you know, 24 he was -- it was more than one call, and it was 25 always about the same thing. And he'd call while I 26 was on the radio, while I was working. I couldn't 27 talk to him. And after a while, it became -- I told 28 my wife that it was -- I told my wife Ann that it 3809 1 was becoming apparent to me that it wasn't a good 2 idea to have the fund-raiser. I -- I decided not to 3 do it because I didn't like the way it was kind of 4 turning out. 5 Q. Was there a particular event that occurred 6 that put you over the top on this, made you decide 7 not to do it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What was that? 10 A. On May 5th of that year, I think 2000 -- 11 whatever the year -- 2000 -- I think, to the best of 12 my knowledge, it's 2000. I was doing a show at the 13 Acapulco Restaurant on May 5th from 5:00 to 10:00 in 14 the morning in El Monte. 15 And at ten o'clock, he approached me outside 16 of the restaurant, right in front of the restaurant, 17 and asked me aggressively what was the deal with the 18 fund-raiser. 19 And I told him that I didn't think it was 20 going to happen. And he said, "What do you mean 21 it's not going to happen?" And I said, "It doesn't 22 look like it's going to happen." And then he -- his 23 tone changed, and we had words, and that was the 24 last time I ever saw him. 25 Q. Did he ever call you again thereafter? 26 A. No. 27 Q. All right. Was there an event that preceded 28 that that affected your decision? 3810 1 A. Yes. There was a situation with a wallet at 2 my house. 3 Q. All right. Let's talk about this. Let's 4 start with, first of all, did you ever take Mr. 5 Arvizo and any of the kids, or Gavin, out shopping? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. All right. Did that begin with a visit to 8 your home? 9 A. Yes, it did. 10 Q. And your home at that time was in what area? 11 A. In Sherman Oaks, California. 12 Q. Have you moved since then? 13 A. I have. 14 Q. Who came to your home with David Arvizo? 15 A. Gavin. 16 Q. Only Gavin? 17 A. I think Star might have come also. 18 Q. Okay. Do you recall if Davellin was there? 19 A. She was not there. 20 Q. Where did you go that day? What did you do? 21 A. Well, I picked them up in El Monte. I 22 brought them to the house, and they played in the 23 backyard for a little bit. And then I took them to 24 Pizza Hut and I took them to the mall, and we walked 25 around the mall a little bit. And then I brought 26 them home, brought them to the house and they used 27 the rest room, and then I drove them back to El 28 Monte. 3811 1 Q. All right. Was Gavin still ill at this 2 time, or had he already gone into remission? 3 A. He had kind of gone into a little remission. 4 He was out of the hospital. 5 Q. But he was still going back and forth for 6 treatment? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How was his appearance at that time? 9 A. He was kind of energetic. I think he was -- 10 you know, he was okay. He was walking around. He 11 wasn't, you know, as frail as he was when he was in 12 the hospital. He was doing okay. 13 Q. All right. And David was there; is that 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you notice anything unusual about their 17 behavior when they were in the stores? 18 A. Well, you know, like any kid in the mall, 19 you know, Gavin wanted everything, and David kind of 20 was off to the side, a little bit in the back, kind 21 of conspicuously out -- just out of the way. He 22 wasn't really with us. Kind of off to the side. 23 Q. Was Gavin asking for things? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And were you purchasing things for him? 26 A. Not everything, but a few things. 27 Q. Okay. Did David's behavior strike you as 28 unusual? 3812 1 A. Yeah, I think so. 2 Q. In what way? 3 A. In that he was, you know, a little -- he was 4 a little, you know, distant. He was distant but 5 yet, you know, always a little tense, you know. He 6 was a little -- not as relaxed as somebody would be, 7 I guess. 8 Q. Did you feel he should have been a little 9 more responsible as a parent while his child was 10 asking you for things? 11 A. Yeah. He wasn't anywhere around. 12 Q. All right. Now, when you finally got back 13 home, and David left, what did you notice in the 14 house? 15 A. Well, I took them home, and I came back. 16 And we had this room that really a lot of people 17 have. It's very popular with Mexicans. We have a 18 room that's no one's allowed to sit in, and 19 everything stays -- everything stays put. And it 20 was my -- our house, and even I wasn't allowed in 21 that room. 22 So on the mantle, there's nothing on the 23 fireplace mantle except this brown and black wallet. 24 So as I walk in the house, your eyes immediately go 25 to the mantle. It's the first thing you see. 26 So I see this wallet, and I pick it up and 27 it's not mine, and I open it up, and it has an I.D., 28 Gavin's I.D. And I look, and there's a $50 bill in 3813 1 it, one $50 bill. 2 So I go to the kitchen, where my wife is, 3 and I say, "Ann, Gavin left his wallet." So we call 4 Gavin, tell him that he left his wallet. They say 5 to drop it off at The Laugh Factory. We end up 6 sending it in the mail so that we can get rid of it. 7 And then sometime later, I understand 8 through Jamie Masada at The Laugh Factory, that 9 David Arvizo told Jamie Masada, who owns The Laugh 10 Factory, that I had taken $300 out of Gavin's 11 wallet. 12 Q. Okay. Janet Arvizo never accused you -- 13 A. No. 14 Q. -- of taking money from her son's wallet; is 15 that correct? 16 A. No. That's correct. 17 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Janet 18 Arvizo about the wallet? 19 A. Never. 20 Q. All right. Did Janet Arvizo ever ask you 21 for money? 22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and answered 23 three times. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Following this event, the 26 conversation with Mr. Masada -- 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. -- about the wallet, did you ever have 3814 1 another conversation with David Arvizo? 2 A. I never did. Oh, after the wallet -- after 3 the wallet, I had the exchange on May 5th. 4 Q. Now, when you had the exchange on May 5th, 5 did you already know -- had you already had the 6 conversation with Mr. Masada about the wallet? 7 A. My wife did. 8 Q. All right. Did you know about it at the 9 time -- 10 A. I did. 11 Q. -- of the conversation? 12 Was that one of the reasons that you no 13 longer wished to be associated with them? 14 A. You know, that might have put me over the 15 top. 16 Q. Were you involved in any fund-raisers for 17 the Arvizo family at all? 18 A. You know, I can't recall. 19 Q. The one that was at The Laugh Factory, you 20 don't have a recollection of having been there? 21 A. You know, I think early on I may have. But 22 I really -- I can't remember. I think -- I think 23 the one that Fritz Coleman hosted was the one that I 24 performed at. But it was early on, so I really 25 can't say. 26 Q. Other than the one that you organized, or 27 began to organize at The Ice House, were you 28 organizing any other fund-raisers for the Arvizo 3815 1 family? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you give any money to any other member 4 of the family of the Arvizo family, other than David 5 Arvizo? 6 A. I did not. 7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; misstates the 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was -- is 10 in. Next question. 11 MR. ZONEN: Let me have just one moment, 12 please. 13 Q. In Janet's telephone call to you when she 14 announced that her child was ill, did she ask for 15 your assistance at that time in that conversation? 16 A. You know, other than -- 17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and 18 answered. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 You may answer. 21 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 22 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Yes. 23 A. Other than just finding out her son was 24 gravely ill and didn't know what to do, that's what 25 I got from the call. 26 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further 27 questions. 28 THE COURT: Cross-examine? 3816 1 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. MESEREAU: 5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lopez. 6 A. Good afternoon. 7 Q. My name is Tom Mesereau, and I speak for 8 Michael Jackson. 9 We've never spoken before, right? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Now, you interviewed with the Santa Barbara 12 Sheriffs on -- last Friday, correct? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. And who did you interview with? 15 A. I interviewed with the gentleman who was 16 just asking me the questions. 17 Q. That's Prosecutor Zonen? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And how long did you meet with 20 Prosecutor Zonen? 21 A. Me personally? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. 25 minutes. 24 Q. And were you with your attorney? 25 A. I was. 26 Q. And your attorney is sitting here today, 27 right? 28 A. Yes. 3817 1 Q. Mr. Blancarte? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. And you didn't want that interview to 4 be tape-recorded, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. So as far as you know, there was no tape- 7 recording of what you said, right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Okay. Now, you told Prosecutor Zonen that 10 you think you gave David Arvizo, in total, something 11 less than $400, right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And this had to do with moneys you gave him 14 at the hospital primarily; is that correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. But you also told Prosecutor Zonen that you 17 went shopping with David and Gavin, and Gavin kept 18 asking you to buy him things in front of his father, 19 correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you found it kind of strange that the 22 father never told him to stop doing that or spoke 23 up, right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Okay. And did you buy him anything while 26 you were shopping with Gavin and the father? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Okay. What did you buy Gavin? 3818 1 A. You know, we took him to the Discovery Store 2 and bought a few -- maybe like a race car track, and 3 a ball that extends, and things like that. 4 Q. Okay. And how often would you buy -- well, 5 let me rephrase that. How often did you go shopping 6 with Gavin and David? 7 A. That was the only time. 8 Q. Just one time? 9 A. Just one time. 10 Q. And to your knowledge, how many times, if 11 you remember, did Gavin ask you to buy something for 12 him in front of his father? 13 A. Four. 14 Q. Okay. Did you buy whatever he wanted every 15 time? 16 A. Well, I -- no. 17 Q. Okay. Okay. You bought some of the things 18 he wanted and didn't buy other things he wanted? 19 A. Kind of expensive. 20 Q. Didn't you also bring gifts to the hospital 21 when Gavin was ill? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what gifts did you bring to the 24 hospital? 25 A. You know, cast-iron cars and things like 26 that. 27 Q. Okay. But the money -- the actual money you 28 donated was to David directly, correct? 3819 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you ever give Gavin anything directly? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember signing a 5 declaration under penalty of perjury in this case on 6 February 16th, 2005? 7 A. Um, yeah. 8 Q. Do you remember testifying under penalty -- 9 excuse me, not "testifying." Do you remember 10 swearing under penalty of perjury the following: 11 "I never provided money to the Arvizos or any of 12 them"? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Well, that wasn't true, was it? 15 A. Well, at that time I couldn't recall. 16 Q. So on February 16th you couldn't recall, 17 under penalty of perjury, if you gave any money to 18 any of the Arvizos, correct? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. But when you met with the prosecutor on 21 Friday, you suddenly recalled that you gave David 22 money on a periodic basis, right? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. You gave him, what, no more than 40 or 50 25 bucks at a time, correct? 26 A. Right. 27 Q. And you thought the total was less than 28 $400, right? 3820 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Okay. Now, from what you said today -- 3 correct me if I'm wrong, I think you said that you 4 were involved in planning for a fund-raiser, but 5 never went through with it? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Okay. And you didn't go through with it 8 because David's activities offended you, correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You thought he was leaning on you too hard 11 for money, right? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. And was it your understanding that he was 14 married to Janet at that time? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Do you remember signing another 17 declaration under penalty of perjury in this case on 18 January 18th, 2005? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you said, "I have not involved" -- "I 21 have not been involved, appeared or participated in 22 a fund-raiser for the minor and alleged victim in 23 the Michael Jackson case," right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. That wasn't totally truthful, was it? 26 A. I could not recall. 27 Q. Okay. So on January 18th you couldn't 28 recall if you had any involvement in a fund-raiser, 3821 1 but after you signed that declaration under penalty 2 penalty of perjury, you remembered that you were 3 involved in some of the early planning stages; is 4 that correct? 5 A. Well, I signed the -- I couldn't recall, and 6 then I, you know, remembered. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. So that's two declarations you 8 signed under penalty of perjury in this case, right? 9 One on January 18th, and one on February 16th, 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Okay. And after signing those 13 declarations under penalty of perjury, you then 14 remembered some other facts that, had you known at 15 the time, you wouldn't have signed the declaration? 16 A. Well, at the time I couldn't recall. 17 Q. Okay. Okay. Let me go back to your 18 discussion with Prosecutor Zonen. Okay? 19 Now, you indicated to him that you first met 20 the Arvizo children at the comedy camp, right? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. And that's where you met Janet, right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And to your knowledge, Janet was always at 25 comedy camp when you were there and saw the 26 children, correct? 27 A. Correct. 28 Q. And you told Prosecutor Zonen that the 3822 1 children would act on stage, correct? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And they would often act out little themes 4 about their poverty, correct? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. They would talk about not having any money, 7 right? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. They would talk about roaches in their home, 10 correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And Janet would be sitting there, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You also told Prosecutor Zonen that Janet 15 told you a story about her children diving into a 16 fountain for pennies, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Now, after you had finished coaching the 19 kids at The Laugh Factory, did you ever see Janet 20 again -- 21 A. I did not. 22 Q. -- to your knowledge? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. So after you finished coaching the 25 kids at The Laugh Factory, there was a period of 26 time that elapsed between your coaching the kids, 27 and your hearing from Janet on the phone, correct? 28 A. That's correct. 3823 1 Q. She called you up very upset that Gavin was 2 seriously ill, right? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And asked for assitance of some kind. I'm 5 not saying it was financial assitance, but she asked 6 you to help, right? 7 A. More emotional assistance. 8 Q. But she also asked you to go to the 9 hospital, correct? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. You went to the hospital? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. You went there many times to help Gavin when 14 he was ill? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When you first got to the hospital to see 17 Gavin, you saw David; is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And every time you went to the hospital to 20 see Gavin, you never saw Janet, you always saw 21 David, right? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Okay. How many times do you think you 24 visited Gavin at the hospital when you saw David? 25 A. Approximately ten. 26 Q. Okay. And these are the visits when you 27 often brought gifts for Gavin, right? 28 A. Right. 3824 1 Q. You brought food, right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And what else did you bring him? 4 A. You know, the car occasionally. But other 5 times I just -- I just went. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. You know, I didn't bring something every 8 time I went. 9 Q. Now, would David try to hit you up for money 10 at the hospital? 11 A. What he would do is he would, you know, 12 imply how bad off he was doing, you know. 13 Q. And that was pretty often, wasn't it? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Every time I saw him. 17 Q. And you never discussed his financial 18 situation with Janet, because she never was around, 19 correct? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Now, after you had helped David with the 22 cash you gave him, and after you had helped Gavin 23 with the gifts you bought him, at some point Janet 24 called you up and thanked you for what you'd done 25 for the family, correct? 26 A. I don't recall getting a phone call from 27 Janet. 28 Q. Didn't you tell the prosecutors that at some 3825 1 point Janet called you up and thanked you for the 2 nice things you'd done for the family? 3 A. I didn't speak to her. 4 Q. You never -- she never called you and said 5 thank you? 6 A. She never called me. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, you thought the family 8 lived in El Monte, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. And why did you think they lived 11 in El Monte? 12 A. Because every time I went to see Gavin, 13 that's where I went, to the -- to the grandparents' 14 house. 15 Q. And why did you go to that location? Did 16 someone tell you that's where they lived? 17 A. That's where David told me to go. 18 Q. And you assumed that that's where they 19 lived, right? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Okay. You never saw David at comedy camp, 22 correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. All right. It was always Janet. But 25 suddenly when he got ill, it seemed like it changed. 26 You always saw David and you never saw Janet? 27 A. That's right. 28 Q. Do you know what time of day you often went 3826 1 to the hospital? 2 A. I usually went after I got off the radio, 3 probably around 11:00 or 12:00. 4 Q. Now, when you were coaching the kids at 5 comedy camp, you often took them to eat, right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And Janet would be with you, correct? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. And you would treat the whole family to 10 food, right? 11 A. Well, snacks. 12 Q. Yeah. But, I mean, you did that quite often 13 for them, didn't you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And they always appeared grateful for what 16 you had done? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. They seemed like a nice family, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. All right. You participated in their 21 graduation ceremony at the comedy club, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that was, what, about three or four 24 months in duration? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. All right. And approximately what months 27 were they? 28 A. You know, I can't recall what month that 3827 1 was. 2 Q. Okay. Now, between the comedy camp ending 3 and Janet calling you to talk about the hospital, 4 how much time elapsed, if you remember? 5 A. Six weeks. 6 Q. Okay. All right. 7 A. Over the holidays of that year. Probably 8 six weeks. 9 Q. And Janet asked you to come and spend time 10 with Gavin, right? 11 A. Well, he was -- you know, he was sick, so I 12 went to see him. 13 Q. But she asked you to go spend time with him, 14 right? 15 A. You know, I don't know if she particularly 16 asked. But when -- you know, I was a fan of 17 Gavin's. So when he was not well, I went to the 18 hospital to see him as a friend. 19 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just 20 show you a police report where it says you told the 21 police "Janet asked George if he would come spend 22 time with Gavin"? 23 A. It could. 24 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. 26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Lopez, have you had a 27 chance to see that report? 28 A. I saw it. 3828 1 Q. Okay. Does it refresh your recollection 2 about what you told the sheriff? 3 A. It does not. 4 Q. It does not? 5 A. I mean, you know, if she asked me to -- you 6 know, here's the difference. I mean, did she 7 formally ask me? She said Gavin was ill and I went 8 to the hospital. There wasn't a formal invitation. 9 Q. Okay. But you didn't tell the sheriffs 10 that, "Janet asked George if he would come spend 11 time with Gavin"? 12 A. You have to repeat the question. 13 Q. Yeah, okay. I'm asking you if, in your 14 interview last Friday, you told the sheriffs Janet 15 asked you if you would come spend time with Gavin in 16 the hospital? 17 A. Well, in a sense, that's what that is. 18 That's what that phone call was. 19 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, you began visiting Gavin 20 with your wife, correct? 21 A. My wife went the first time, and on a couple 22 other occasions maybe. But for the most part, I 23 would go right after I got off the radio, so I would 24 go by myself. I would try to sneak away to see 25 Gavin as much as I could, when I could. 26 Q. Right. And that's when you brought him 27 gifts and snacks? 28 A. Well, not every time, but on occasion. 3829 1 Q. Okay. Did you find it strange that you 2 never saw Janet at the hospital? 3 A. Well, you know, I -- I mean, I knew she was 4 a waitress, so I thought -- I really thought she was 5 working. I'd just say that I never really -- I 6 wasn't there all the time, so I didn't know whether 7 she was there when I wasn't there. But every time I 8 went, she wasn't there, so I just figured that she 9 was always working. 10 Q. You really don't know if she was working, do 11 you? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Okay. Okay. And you may have thought she 14 was a waitress, but you really don't know where she 15 was waiting tables, right? 16 A. She never served me. 17 Q. Okay. And never told you where she was 18 working, right? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And David never told you where she was 21 working, right? 22 A. Never did. 23 Q. Okay. Okay. How agressive was David in 24 asking for money? 25 A. You know, it was -- it was pretty 26 aggressive. I mean -- I mean, when you're two guys 27 talking, and the subject always comes up, it -- you 28 know, you kind of get turned off to it. Every time 3830 1 we spoke, it was always about -- really about money. 2 Q. And he always said he had no way to pay the 3 family's bills, right? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. And you gave him little amounts that you had 6 in your pocket at the time? 7 A. Yeah, I only had little amounts at the time. 8 Q. Okay. And you -- and you told the sheriffs 9 you never turned down -- David never turned down any 10 gesture of kindness you offered him? 11 A. Never. 12 Q. He always wanted money, didn't he? 13 A. He did. 14 Q. Okay. Okay. You thought the largest money 15 you gave him at one point was 80 bucks? 16 A. Probably around there, yeah. 17 Q. Okay. All right. 18 A. I literally would give the guy everything I 19 had in my wallet and just figured I'd get more 20 later. 21 Q. Now, did he ever tell you that he was giving 22 any of his money to Janet? 23 A. Never. 24 Q. Okay. You don't know one way or the other, 25 do you? 26 A. I don't. 27 Q. Okay. Now, do you know Louise Palanker? 28 A. You know, I don't know Louise Palanker. 3831 1 Q. Ever heard her name? 2 A. Yeah, I heard her name here. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And on E! 5 Q. Okay. You don't know anything about her -- 6 you don't know anything about her giving 10,000 7 bucks to Janet, do you? 8 A. I don't. 9 Q. You don't know anything about her giving 10 10,000 bucks to David, do you? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. Did you ever hear about that? 13 A. You know, I think it's odd when a comedian 14 has $10,000 period, you know, so I never -- 15 (Laughter.) 16 Q. All right. Okay. Now, at some point David 17 started bragging to you about Neverland Ranch, 18 didn't he? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you thought his attitude changed, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You thought he got kind of - what's the 24 word? - snooty or snobby? Would that be the right 25 word? 26 A. Enamored. 27 Q. Enamored. That's how you described David's 28 attitude after he told you the family had gone to 3832 1 Neverland Ranch? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And he told you that Michael Jackson had 4 given a truck to his family, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Okay. You described him to the sheriffs as 7 "smitten" by his new-found association with Michael 8 Jackson, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, you learned at some point that Michael 11 Jackson was calling Gavin at the hospital, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And someone told you he was calling 14 him at -- sometimes late at night and having long 15 chats with Gavin, correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Did David tell you that? 18 A. I think maybe -- yeah, I think maybe David 19 did. 20 Q. All right. 21 A. In the room, in the hospital room. 22 Q. At some point, you thought David was 23 extremely engrossed with money and possessions, 24 true? 25 A. That's correct. 26 Q. Because when you visited them in El Monte, 27 he showed off that room with the DVD and all the 28 rest, correct? 3833 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. That's the room that you described as like 3 the Four Seasons, right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Did you ever know who paid to renovate that 6 room? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. You don't know if the person who 9 renovated that room was paid or not, correct? 10 A. I did not know that. 11 Q. Okay. Did David ever talk about how that 12 room became so nice? 13 A. No. My assumption was that it was Jamie 14 Masada that had arranged that. 15 Q. But you don't know for sure? 16 A. But I don't know for sure. 17 Q. And if Jamie arranged it through Louise 18 Palanker, you don't know about that? 19 A. I don't know about that. 20 Q. And if the contractor who did it was never 21 paid, you don't know about that either? 22 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as 23 speculative and testimony. The witness has 24 repeatedly said he doesn't know. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. 26 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 27 Q. Now, you told the sheriffs, Mr. Lopez, you 28 thought David Arvizo was particularly enamored with 3834 1 the big-screen television and the Nintendo, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You said you noticed this to a small degree 4 with the children as well, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. But not to the extent that David seemed like 7 he wanted to impress you with his new possessions? 8 A. Very pleased. 9 Q. Okay. You told the sheriff that David -- 10 everything about David seemed to be about money, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. You went to the El Monte address 14 about two times, correct? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. Okay. And David was there both times, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who else was there during those visits? 20 A. The grandparents. 21 Q. Okay. Did you ever see the children there? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. Okay. Were all three children there, to 24 your knowledge, on both visits? 25 A. You know, I can't recall. 26 Q. Okay. 27 A. But I think Star was always kind of around 28 Gavin. 3835 1 Q. Okay. Did you see Davellin? 2 A. On occasion, but I don't remember her being 3 there. 4 Q. Now, who arranged your visits to the El 5 Monte address? 6 A. I would arrange them with David. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. When you went shopping with 8 David and Gavin, were Star or Davellin present? 9 A. I think Star was. 10 Q. Okay. But you seemed, in your interview 11 with the sheriffs, to particularly recall Gavin 12 asking you to buy things for him, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You never mentioned to the sheriffs that 15 Star was asking you to buy things for him, correct? 16 A. No. 17 Q. And you thought it rather odd the father 18 never just said a word as the son looked at you and 19 said, "Buy this for me"? 20 A. It would have been nice if he stepped in. 21 Q. But he never did, right? 22 A. Never did. 23 Q. Did you ever talk to him about it? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Ever ask him, "Why are you letting your son 26 just keeping leaning on me like this"? 27 A. He's not my kid. 28 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, would Gavin just 3836 1 typically come up to you and point at something and 2 say, "Would you buy that for me?" 3 MR. ZONEN: I'll object to "typically." 4 Talking about one event. 5 MR. MESEREAU: I'll rephrase it. 6 No, it's not -- Your Honor, we're not 7 talking about one event. It's one day. 8 MR. ZONEN: Then it's vague for exactly that 9 reason. 10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You went shopping with him 11 on one particular day, right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. You went to a number of stores, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Gavin was with you, right? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. David was with you? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And you think Star was with you? 20 A. I can't remember, but I think. 21 Q. And in various stores, Gavin would point to 22 items and ask you to buy them for him? 23 A. You know how a kid does in a store, "Can you 24 buy me this?" And -- 25 Q. Yeah. 26 A. -- "Oh, I really" -- it's the old, you know, 27 "Oh, I really like this." 28 Q. Well, but he wasn't looking at his father 3837 1 and saying, "I really like this." 2 A. No. 3 Q. He was always looking at you, with the 4 father standing right there, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Okay. And you told the sheriffs, 7 "David seemed to intentionally stand back and make 8 no effort to rein in Gavin's requests"? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You thought that was strange, right? 11 A. Seemed odd. 12 Q. Did you take them to lunch that day? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. And did you take them to lunch on any 15 other days; do you know? 16 A. No. 17 Q. All right. Now, where did you see the 18 wallet? 19 A. The wallet was on the fireplace mantle of my 20 house. It was the only thing on the mantle. 21 Q. And when you saw it, how did you think it 22 got there? 23 A. You know, it never occurred to me how it got 24 there, because, you know, they -- nobody played in 25 that room, so it was kind of odd that a wallet would 26 end up on that -- on that mantle. 27 Q. And how high up was the mantle? 28 A. You know, shoulder height. 3838 1 Q. Taller than Gavin, wasn't it? 2 A. At that time, maybe. 3 Q. So, did it seem peculiar to you that 4 suddenly a wallet's just lying there? 5 A. Well, being that in that room, really 6 nothing's supposed to be in there, yeah. 7 Q. Had you seen Gavin or David in that room? 8 A. No. 9 Q. And how long had they been at your house? 10 A. Well, the beginning -- when I first dropped 11 them off, they played in the backyard probably about 12 45 minutes to an hour. And then we went to the mall 13 and then came back. They just really came back to 14 use the rest room, because the drive was a little 15 far, so not much time. 16 Q. And you testified, I believe, there was a 17 $50 bill in Gavin's wallet? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And there was also an I.D. card, correct? 20 A. A school I.D. 21 Q. That was for Gavin, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you told the sheriffs you thought it was 24 odd that Gavin would have $50 in a wallet, right? 25 A. Yeah. 26 Q. Not to mention the wallet sitting up on the 27 mantle in that room? 28 A. Right. 3839 1 Q. Okay. And what's the first thing you did 2 when you opened the wallet, saw that Gavin's name 3 was on an I.D. card, and there's a $50 bill in it? 4 What's the first thing you did? 5 A. The first thing I did was show it to my 6 wife, who was in the kitchen. 7 Q. And then what did you do? 8 A. Then we called the Arvizo house and made 9 arrangements to get the wallet back to them. 10 Q. And how did you get it back to them? 11 A. We sent it. 12 Q. Did you call the Arvizo home? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who did you talk to? 15 A. My wife called, and I think she spoke to 16 David. 17 Q. Okay. David said, "Just send it to the 18 house"? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Well, he wanted us to take it to The Laugh 22 Factory, but we ended up sending it to the house. 23 Q. Who first talked to you about planning the 24 fund-raiser for Gavin? 25 A. You know, at that time I was having 26 conversations with David, so -- and being in the 27 hospital, so I think it was between David and I and 28 my wife. 3840 1 Q. Okay. And you told the sheriffs David was 2 particularly persistent and aggressive about how 3 much money they were going to make, right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And you are still never seeing Janet during 6 any of this, right? 7 A. No. That's correct. 8 Q. Never see her at the hospital, and she never 9 goes to your house, right? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. At some point, your wife confronted David 12 about his constant requests for money, right? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Okay. And he got kind of nasty, didn't he? 15 A. He did. 16 Q. Okay. Were you there? 17 A. I was not there. 18 Q. Okay. But you heard about it? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. And that sort of started a downhill slide in 21 your relationship with the whole family, right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. At some point you cut off all relationships 24 with that family, correct? 25 A. That's true. 26 Q. And you called off any work that you were 27 doing on the benefit? 28 A. That's right. 3841 1 Q. All right. And I think you said David tried 2 to repeatedly call you at the radio station, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Did you take his calls? 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. Okay. Did you tell anybody to tell them, 7 "Stop the calls"? 8 A. Well, he called usually when we were on the 9 air, but I wasn't going to take the call after his 10 conversation with my wife. 11 Q. Okay. Now, at some point you told David 12 there's not going to be any benefit, right? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. And actually, that wasn't really correct, 15 was it? You just weren't going to work on it 16 anymore? 17 A. I wasn't going to do the one that I was 18 planning. 19 Q. There was some others being planned you knew 20 about? 21 A. I think so, yeah. 22 Q. How did you know about them? Through Jamie? 23 A. Through Jamie. 24 Q. Did Jamie seem to be your main source of 25 your information about the Arvizo family, other than 26 what you saw directly? 27 A. Yeah, that's how I met them. And pretty 28 much, you know, everything was kind of going through 3842 1 Jamie. He was kind of the guy that everybody talked 2 to. 3 Q. Okay. David tried to make you feel guilty 4 about not helping Gavin at that point, didn't he? 5 A. Um, yes. At the point of May 5th, he did. 6 Q. And you told him basically he's an 7 extortionist, correct? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. That wasn't a pleasant conversation, was it? 10 A. It was not. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. And I don't use big words like that, you 13 know. 14 (Laughter.) 15 Q. All right. Now, after you called him an 16 extortionist, what happened next? 17 A. You know, it was pretty -- it was a pretty 18 heated exchange. And after that, he left. And, you 19 know, I got -- I got to be honest with you, after 20 that, I had no conversations with Gavin or any of 21 the Arvizos after May 5th of that day. 22 Q. You then learned at some point from Jamie 23 Masada that Jamie had given David some money 24 supposedly to make up for what he claimed was lost 25 from the son's wallet? 26 A. That's right. 27 Q. And the implication was that you had taken 28 it -- 3843 1 A. That I had taken it. 2 Q. And you never took a thing, right? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. Were you upset with Masada that he would 5 even pay him something? 6 A. I was. Yeah, I was. 7 Q. Did you complain to Masada? 8 A. I did. I said, "How could you do that?" 9 Q. Okay. And he basically said to you, he 10 wanted to make peace, or words to that effect? 11 A. Words to that effect. 12 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, are you certain you never 13 performed with Fritz Coleman at a benefit for Gavin? 14 A. You know, I'm not certain. 15 Q. So you may have done that? 16 A. I may have. 17 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, did anyone ever mention 18 to you anything about a J.C. Penney lawsuit while 19 you knew the Arvizos? 20 A. You know, I did not know about that until -- 21 until after my -- all ties were broken. 22 Q. Okay. And how did you learn about the J.C. 23 Penney lawsuit? 24 A. I think I learned about that from -- 25 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as 26 irrelevant and hearsay. 27 THE COURT: Sustained. 28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you recall, 3844 1 sometime after your relationship soured with the 2 Arvizos, Janet gave you a key chain? 3 A. She did. 4 Q. And approximately when was that? 5 A. That might have been maybe six months after 6 our -- my dealings with David. 7 Q. Okay. So six months after you pretty much 8 severed your ties with the family? 9 A. Yeah, a key chain showed up. 10 Q. She approached you, correct? 11 A. You know, I can't recall how I got it. 12 Q. She gave you a key chain as a way of 13 thanking you for what you'd done for the family, 14 correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Do you know where that happened? 17 A. You know, I don't. I can't remember. 18 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you know approximately when 19 it was? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Do you remember speaking to her when 22 she gave you the key chain? 23 A. You know, I can't recall. 24 Q. Okay. But you told the sheriffs, in your 25 mind, it was her way of thanking you for what you 26 had done for the family. You told them that in your 27 interview, correct? 28 A. I think so. 3845 1 Q. Okay. Now, obviously it goes without saying 2 if Janet and David were discussing ways to get money 3 from people, you weren't there? 4 MR. ZONEN: I'll object as speculative. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You spent very little time 7 in their home, correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And you said they were from East L.A. 10 Did you mean El Monte? 11 A. You know, I only know El Monte. So if I 12 said "East L.A.," I meant El Monte. 13 Q. When you say "El Monte," you don't mean East 14 L.A. is El Monte, do you? 15 A. Well, you know, any Chicano knows better 16 than that. 17 Q. Well, let me ask you this: You said -- 18 A. That's Chicano 101. East L.A. is not El 19 Monte. 20 (Laughter.) 21 Q. Right. Well, let me ask you this: You said 22 that when you first started at the comedy club, they 23 were taking a bus from East L.A., right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. But you said when you visited their home, 26 you went to El Monte. 27 A. Yeah. 28 Q. So you never really visited a home for the 3846 1 Arvizos in East L.A., correct? 2 A. I did not. 3 Q. But they told you they were from East L.A., 4 true? 5 A. Yeah. You know, I never really thought 6 about their geographic location whatsoever. 7 Q. Okay. So did it ever occur to you that 8 there may be two residences? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Well, if they said they were taking a bus 11 from East L.A., but they took you to their home in 12 El Monte, doesn't that suggest two residences? 13 A. I never thought about it. 14 Q. Well, as you think about it now -- 15 A. I was way off. But once they got on the 16 bus, my contact with them ended. 17 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay. No further 18 questions. Thank you. 19 THE WITNESS: All right. 20 21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. ZONEN: 23 Q. Mr. Lopez, you understood that the El Monte 24 home was the home that had the cleanroom for Gavin 25 in it; is that correct? 26 A. That's correct. 27 Q. And that was his grandmother's home, the 28 grandparents' home? 3847 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Did you ever ask how many people actually 3 lived in that residence? 4 A. I never asked, but it just looked like maybe 5 five. 6 Q. And it had been sometime earlier when you 7 were told that they were coming from East L.A. was 8 in conjunction with the kids attending the comedy 9 camp; is that right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Did you have any reason to believe that 12 wasn't true? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did anybody ever take you to an address -- 15 a studio apartment on Soto Street for purposes of 16 showing you how impoverished they were? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did anybody say anything about a residence 19 on Soto Street for purposes of showing you how 20 impoverished they were? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, the story about the kids diving into 23 the fountain, was that a story that was given to you 24 by Janet? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And was that in the presence of her 27 children? 28 A. They might have been in the room, around the 3848 1 room, yeah. It was kind of more of a joke than an 2 actual admonishment. 3 Q. The kids were laughing at the story, weren't 4 they? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. What was it that she said about it? 7 A. She said she had taken the kids to the mall, 8 and in the center of the mall there was a fountain 9 that people would throw coins in. And she had 10 turned her back, and when she turned back, all three 11 kids were in the water getting coins. 12 Q. What did she do? 13 A. She told them to get out. And, you know, at 14 that time everybody was pointing at the kids, like, 15 "Whose kids are these?" And she told the kids to 16 put the money back. 17 Q. And they did so? 18 A. They did. 19 Q. Did David Arvizo ever explain to you why 20 Janet wasn't in the home (sic)? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did he ever talk to you about her having 23 difficulty with dealing with things? 24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; vague. 25 THE COURT: Sustained; leading. 26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Were you concerned at the -- 27 what you were finding at the hospital when you found 28 out that Gavin had been visiting with Michael 3849 1 Jackson at his ranch? 2 A. Well, when I went to see Gavin during the 3 day, he was, you know, asleep. He was, you know, 4 tired, really tired and stuff. 5 Q. That was in conjunction with David telling 6 you he was on the phone for hours at a time in the 7 middle of the night? 8 A. Correct. 9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to 10 strike. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: The key chain that Janet gave 13 you, what did she tell you about that key chain? 14 A. You know, I don't really remember much about 15 the key chain other than her giving me this thing, 16 "Thank you." I think it was a -- had a mustard seed 17 in it or something. 18 Q. A little mustard seed amulet? 19 A. Yeah, something like that. 20 Q. Was it a new one or something that she had? 21 A. It was kind of pewter, so it -- it kind of 22 looked old. Pewter stuff looks old. 23 Q. And she told you that was in appreciation 24 for your help? 25 A. Yeah. 26 Q. When she called you and had that 27 conversation about her child being ill, would you 28 have gone to the hospital regardless of whether she 3850 1 asked you? 2 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for 3 speculation. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What was your intent when she 6 called you and notified you of her child's illness? 7 A. You know, when I was -- the first time I met 8 the Arvizos at The Laugh Factory, you know, I really 9 enjoyed their company, and the kids were great. And 10 I had a really good time teaching them, and they 11 were fun, you know, so -- and, you know, I'd take 12 them and buy them things after, snacks. And I kind 13 of invested in them, because I saw a lot of myself 14 in their family. 15 So when I got the call that he wasn't well, 16 you know, I did what any friend would do, is go to 17 the hospital. 18 Q. You said you were a big fan of Gavin. What 19 do you mean by that? 20 A. He's a great kid. I mean, he had a lot of 21 spirit. And he was fearless and -- you know, he did 22 little dances and stuff. It was great. 23 Q. Even when he was asking you to buy things 24 for him at the shopping mall? 25 A. I don't know if he danced and asked at the 26 same time, but he was always kind of, you know, 27 interesting. 28 Q. When you said you cut off the family, did 3851 1 that have anything to do with the rest of the family 2 beyond David? 3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; vague; 4 asked and answered. 5 MR. ZONEN: It's certainly not asked and 6 answered. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 You may answer. Would you want the question 9 read back? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That would be nice. 11 Thank you. 12 (Record read.) 13 THE WITNESS: It was -- it was everyone in 14 the family. At that time I was only having 15 conversations with David by phone. And when that 16 happened, I never spoke to anyone in the family 17 again. 18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You're saying you cut off 19 everybody in the family? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. But your reason for doing so -- what were 22 your reasons for cutting off the other members of 23 the family besides David? 24 A. Was, you know, that the guy was aggressively 25 trying to get money from me. And when I cut him 26 off, you know, the rest of the family followed. I 27 wasn't going to talk to Gavin behind his father's 28 back, and -- you know, the altercation we had May 3852 1 5th, he used that, you know, against me, because I 2 said to him, you know, "I only" -- "I've only tried 3 to help you." And he said, "You've helped me?" And 4 at that point, it was just -- you know, kind of the 5 wind went out of my sails. 6 And then he said, "What am I supposed to 7 tell Gavin?" And I said, "Tell him his father's an 8 extortionist." 9 Q. Was there anything that Davellin, Star or 10 Janet did to contribute to your cutting off the 11 family or your attention? 12 A. No. 13 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. No further 14 questions. 15 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. 18 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 19 MR. ZONEN: And we'll call Ann Lopez to the 20 stand. 21 THE COURT: Come to the witness stand, 22 please. When you get to the witness stand, remain 23 standing. 24 Face the clerk over here and raise your 25 right hand. 26 27 ANN SERRANO LOPEZ 28 Having been sworn, testified as follows: 3853 1 2 THE WITNESS: I do. 3 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and 4 spell your name for the record. 5 THE WITNESS: Ann Serrano Lopez; A-n-n, 6 S-e-r-r-a-n-o; Lopez, L-o-p-e-z. 7 THE CLERK: Thank you. 8 MR. ZONEN: May I proceed? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. ZONEN: 13 Q. I guess my first question is, what is it 14 like being married to George Lopez? 15 A. A lot of fun. 16 Q. And you are married to George Lopez? 17 A. Yes, I am married to George Lopez. 18 Q. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Are 19 you currently working? 20 A. I'm an independent television producer, and 21 a mother, and -- what else would you like to know? 22 Q. You've been married to Mr. Lopez for how 23 long? 24 A. For eleven and a half years. 25 Q. And prior to that, what profession were you 26 in? 27 A. I was a television producer and a casting 28 director. 3854 1 Q. What does a television producer do? We all 2 know the term. None of us know what they actually 3 do. 4 A. We find projects to produce. So let's say I 5 would find a property that I would want to make into 6 a movie, and secure a writer, secure the production 7 company that would produce it for me. Secure -- 8 secure the actors. And just make sure the entire 9 production gets off on budget. 10 Q. You've been married to George Lopez how 11 long? 12 A. Eleven and a half years. 13 Q. And you have one child? 14 A. One child. 15 Q. At some point in time, did you become 16 aware -- were you aware of the fact that your 17 husband would periodically perform at The Laugh 18 Factory? 19 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. Did you know Jamie Masada? 21 A. Yes, very well. 22 Q. Were you ever introduced to the Arvizo 23 family? 24 A. Only in the hospital after Gavin got ill. 25 I was home with our daughter, so I didn't ever go to 26 the comedy camp. 27 Q. Did you know that your husband was a mentor 28 to the three children -- 3855 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. -- in conjunction with the comedy camp? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. All right. At some point in time, did you 5 become aware that one of those three children had 6 become ill with cancer? 7 A. Yes. It was around two months after the 8 graduation. 9 Q. Did you visit with him at the hospital? And 10 "with him," I mean Gavin. 11 A. Yes, I actually met Gavin in the hospital. 12 Q. All right. Had you ever had a conversation 13 with Gavin's mother prior to his being stricken with 14 cancer? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever meet her? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did she ever call you prior to that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. All right. Have you ever actually met her 21 at any time? 22 A. No. 23 Q. All right. So you wouldn't be able to 24 recognize her if you saw her? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any telephone 27 conversations with her at all? 28 A. Yes. 3856 1 Q. When did the telephone conversations begin? 2 A. The first telephone conversation was when 3 Gavin was stricken with cancer. She called our home 4 very distraught, and George spoke to her. And then 5 I got on the phone to comfort her about her sick 6 child. 7 Q. All right. And did you get on the phone and 8 have a conversation with her at that time? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And did she tell you the extent of the 11 illness that she was dealing with? 12 A. Yes. She talked about the cancer. 13 Q. Did she say anything to you about the 14 description of the cancer that he had, or the 15 diagnosis, or the prognosis? 16 A. Just that it was very grave; that there was 17 a very large tumor, 10, 11, 12, something like that, 18 pounds in his cavity, and that they were going to 19 have to take out a kidney, I believe, and maybe a 20 spleen; that there were -- you know, it was -- that 21 there was spots on his lung. They had found spots 22 on the lung. So it was, very, very severe. 23 Q. How often did you go to the hospital? 24 A. I went less than my husband. Probably six, 25 seven times. 26 Q. The hospital we're talking about, can you 27 tell us which hospital it is and where? 28 A. I believe it was Kaiser Permanente. 3857 1 Q. And do you know where, the location? 2 A. In Los Angeles, I think, towards downtown. 3 Q. The Sunset and Vermont hospital facility? 4 A. That's where it was, uh-huh. 5 Q. When you got there, or any of the times that 6 you went there, did you ever see Janet? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ever talk with her on the telephone 9 while you were at the hospital? 10 A. Yes. When she would call I would get on the 11 phone and speak to her, and just try to comfort her. 12 Q. Were those frequent conversations? 13 A. No. Maybe two or three times. 14 Q. Okay. How often do you think it was that 15 you visited Gavin at the hospital? 16 A. Between six and eight times. I'm not sure 17 exactly how many. 18 Q. Was David there? 19 A. Always. 20 Q. All right. Now, David is who? 21 A. David is Gavin's father. 22 Q. And his last name? 23 A. Arvizo. 24 Q. On each of the times that you were there, he 25 was there? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Did you go on a -- when you went to the 28 hospital to visit, was it always at a certain time 3858 1 frame? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Would it be at various times during the day? 4 A. Yes. Sometimes in the afternoon. Sometimes 5 in the evening. It just depended on my husband's 6 schedule. 7 Q. Did you ask Mr. Arvizo, David Arvizo, where 8 his wife was? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And what did he tell you? 11 A. He told me that she was just distraught; 12 that she couldn't handle being there at the 13 hospital; that she would break down; and that she 14 emotionally couldn't handle it. 15 Q. Did you have concerns about that? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Did you have conversations with David Arvizo 18 about his financial state? 19 A. He had conversations with me about his 20 financial state. 21 Q. And tell me the distinction. 22 A. Well, he would hint that they were having 23 financial problems, and would tell me he wasn't sure 24 how they were going to pay their bills or how they 25 were going to pay the rent. 26 Also, he told me that they were living in a 27 studio apartment, and he didn't know how he was 28 going to get Gavin's hospital bed and how Gavin 3859 1 could go back to that place. 2 Q. This is early on, I. Assume? 3 A. The very first visit. 4 Q. Okay. Did you know where they were living, 5 where their residence was? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever go to visit them at his home? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Or did you go to visit Gavin at the time 10 that Gavin was out of the hospital in a residence? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So you don't know necessarily where they 13 were living? 14 A. No. 15 Q. All right. What did you think about his 16 initial comment on that first visit about his 17 financial state? What did you understand was going 18 on? 19 A. Well, it seemed to me that, you know, they 20 were a lower income family. He was taking a leave 21 of absence from his job. He told me that. And he 22 said that one of them had to work to make money for 23 the family. 24 And I found it a little strange that it 25 would be Janet because he said that she was a 26 waitress. And I thought, well, a waitress doesn't 27 make as much as he was making. And he was also -- 28 he had told me his job was the job that had medical 3860 1 care, the medical insurance. 2 Q. Did he tell you any -- did he express 3 concern to you about his medical insurance? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did he have any conversation with you at all 6 about who was paying the bills? 7 A. No, he just said it was covering the 8 expenses and that his job covered the medical 9 insurance. 10 It wasn't until one of the later visits that 11 he said he was worried that the insurance was going 12 to run out. And I told him "Then, well, you should 13 go back to work." 14 Q. Did he tell you that he was concerned the 15 insurance would run out because he was not at work? 16 A. Yes, because his leave of absence was 17 already very long, and he -- if he didn't go back to 18 work, then the medical insurance would lapse. 19 Q. What did you tell him? 20 A. I told him he should go back to work and get 21 on with it, and get his insurance for his son; that 22 that was the most important thing, that his son was 23 covered with medical insurance. 24 Q. At some point in time, did you make a 25 decision, perhaps with your husband or by yourself, 26 as to whether or not the Lopez family would be 27 contributing money from your own pockets to David 28 Arvizo? 3861 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what was that decision? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Had you talked with David about that 5 specifically? 6 A. No. I just -- from the very beginning, I 7 saw things that just seemed very strange to me. I 8 didn't know them at all. This was the first 9 meeting. David and I walked -- let George have some 10 time with Gavin the first meeting and be in the 11 room. And there was like a glass partition. So 12 David and I stepped out and we were talking. And, 13 you know, at first it was very normal. He was very 14 concerned about his son and the medical attention. 15 But when he walked back into the room, I 16 noticed that the children shied away from him. And 17 there was no -- there was no closeness, there was no 18 touching. I didn't see anything that would indicate 19 that there was a bond between these children and 20 their father, especially at such a difficult time. 21 And then when he told me that Janet was not 22 going -- was not going to be at the hospital, I also 23 found that -- being a mother, I found that very 24 strange. Here was this woman that would take the 25 bus to take her three children to comedy camp for 26 months on end, but she can't be at the hospital with 27 her sick child. That just seemed very strange to 28 me. So I thought there was something a little off 3862 1 there. 2 Q. Did you ever have David Arvizo and any of 3 his children at your home? 4 A. Yes, we did. 5 Q. On more than one occasion? 6 A. Just once. 7 Q. And when was that; do you recall? 8 A. It was -- I'm not sure exactly the time 9 frame. I was home with my daughter who was very 10 young. But it was one time when George wanted to 11 visit him in the hospital, and David was -- I mean, 12 excuse me, Gavin was out of the hospital. And so 13 George said, "Is it okay if we bring him to our 14 house?" And I said, "Sure." So they came and 15 visited. 16 Q. And you were living where at the time? 17 A. In Sherman Oaks. 18 Q. That's not where you live currently? 19 A. No. 20 Q. All right. When he came to your household, 21 what did you do that day? 22 A. David and Gavin -- George went and picked up 23 David and Gavin and brought them to our home. And 24 we have a very large swing set in the back, and they 25 were playing on the swing set, and meeting my 26 daughter, and Gavin. 27 Q. Gavin was how old at the time? 28 A. Ten and a half. Between 10 and 11. I'm not 3863 1 sure. 2 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 3 A. And it was a hot day. So I said to George, 4 "You know, maybe we should" -- I didn't feel it was 5 very good for him to be in the heat. And I said, 6 "Well, maybe we should just go take them to eat and 7 maybe just go see a movie or something." 8 So we took them to Pizza Hut, and he and my 9 daughter played video games, and we had pizza. And 10 then we took them to the mall. 11 Q. Okay. What did you notice about anyone's 12 behavior at the mall, either David or Gavin? 13 A. Well, Gavin was running in and out of stores 14 like -- you know, we were going into stores and 15 things, and buying him some toys and things like 16 that. 17 By it got to be a little overboard where he 18 was asking for, like, three or four toys at every 19 store. And I kept looking over at David, and David 20 would just walk away, like -- you know, and -- which 21 made it -- you know, he wasn't saying anything to 22 Gavin like, "Okay, Gavin, that's enough," trying to 23 rein him in at any point. I mean, it was like he 24 definitely walked away and, you know, made us feel 25 like, "Okay, buy him what he wants." So.... 26 Q. Give me a sense of how long after you 27 received that initial call about Gavin's illness did 28 this visit occur to your home and to the shopping 3864 1 mall. 2 A. Oooh, I'm not sure exactly, but about six 3 months, I would think. 4 Q. Was Gavin doing better at that time? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was he still involved in treatment? 7 A. Oh, yes. 8 Q. But at the time that he was visiting you, he 9 was -- 10 A. He was in remission, yes. 11 Q. He was in remission at that point and able 12 to walk around? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Did he appear to you to be still frail or -- 15 A. Yes, that's why I didn't want him to be in 16 the heat. He was walking around, but he still was 17 very pale. He didn't have any hair. He was still a 18 very sick boy. 19 Q. When you got home after the visit to the 20 shopping mall, and Gavin and David left, did you 21 notice anything in the house? 22 A. I did not. I just went straight to the 23 kitchen. I started to get -- started to prepare 24 dinner. And when George came home, I heard him say, 25 "Hey, what's this?" And I walked into the living 26 room, which we barely used, and there was a wallet 27 on the mantle. And I said, "Well, open it, and find 28 out what it is." 3865 1 And it was, you know, a velcro -- normal 2 little velcro wallet, and it was Gavin's school I.D. 3 and there was a crisp $50 bill in it, and we just 4 thought that was rather strange that there would be 5 a $50 bill in a ten-year-old child's wallet. 6 Q. What did you do with the wallet? 7 A. I told George, "Well, I'm going to call and 8 just send it back to them." 9 Q. And did you do that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. How did you send it back? 12 A. I think Federal Express. Just sent it back 13 so that they would get it the very next day, because 14 I figured he needed the money. 15 Q. And the $50 bill was, of course, still in 16 the wallet at the time you sent it back? 17 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 18 Q. On that visit to the Sherman Oaks mall, was 19 there anybody else there from the Arvizo family 20 besides Gavin and David? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet Gavin's 23 brother or sister? 24 A. Oh, yes, at the hospital. 25 Q. So they were there visiting on a few 26 different occasions? 27 A. Uh-huh. They were almost always there. 28 Q. When you went to the shopping mall, did you 3866 1 tell Gavin, prior to going over there, that you 2 would buy him something? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did -- 5 A. It was really a last-minute thing. We had 6 actually thought of going to the movies, and there 7 wasn't a movie playing, so we just decided to walk 8 around the mall. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. We knew we would buy him something, you 11 know, a toy or something. 12 Q. Now, did you ever get a phone call back from 13 David Arvizo with regards to the wallet at any time? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Was there ever a subsequent conversation 16 from David, whether it was a phone call or in 17 person, where the subject of that conversation was 18 the wallet? 19 A. No. 20 Q. At some point in time, did you hear from 21 anybody with regards to an issue of money missing 22 from the wallet? 23 A. The way we found out about that was about a 24 month after we stopped having any contact with 25 David, I called Jamie Masada for a completely 26 different reason. I just needed a business number. 27 And, you know, we were talking. He gave me 28 the number I needed, and he said, "Listen, by the 3867 1 way, I want you to know that" -- "remember that 2 wallet?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Well," 3 you know, "David said that the wallet was empty when 4 it was returned." And I said, "Jamie, it had $50 in 5 it." 6 And he's like, "Well, he says there was $300 7 in it, and that it was empty when it was returned." 8 And I was just like, "Jamie, do you really 9 think we would steal $300 from this child that we've 10 been trying to help?" And he said, "No, I know you 11 didn't do it. But I gave him the $300 just to get 12 him off my back." 13 And I offered to reimburse Jamie $300. And 14 he said, "No, absolutely not. Don't worry about 15 it." I was like, "Are you sure?" And he was like, 16 "Yeah, just don't worry about it." 17 Q. Did you have any additional conversations 18 with David Arvizo after your conversation with 19 Jamie? 20 A. No. 21 Q. In other words, at the point where you 22 learned that Jamie had been -- had given $300 -- 23 A. No. 24 Q. -- to Mr. Arvizo, no further conversations? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Were you ever working on a fund-raiser on 27 behalf of Gavin? 28 A. Yes. 3868 1 Q. Tell us when that was, in terms of -- give 2 us a sense of around the time that you did your 3 shopping spree at the Sherman Oaks mall. Was it 4 during that time? Before that? 5 A. It was right after that, around there. 6 David was getting more frequent with his hints about 7 needing money. And I said to George, you know, 8 "Let's just go ahead and do our own fund-raiser for 9 him at The Ice House," which is another comedy club 10 in Pasadena, "and that way we'll just get him off 11 our back." 12 Q. Have you done fund-raisers before? 13 A. Oh, yes. Many. 14 Q. That's not unusual for a celebrity like your 15 husband to end up being invited to do a fund-raiser? 16 A. Oh, no. We get asked to do many more than 17 we possibly can do. 18 Q. And you have done many -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- over the years? 21 A. Many. Many. 22 Q. What's involved in putting on a fund-raiser 23 like this? 24 A. We usually contact one of the comedy clubs 25 and one of the owners, who -- they're all our 26 friends. And you usually do a fund-raiser on a 27 Monday night, which is a slow night for the club. 28 And the door -- the ticket price, which you can set 3869 1 any ticket price you want, will go to your 2 fund-raiser. And then the drinks and food will go 3 to the comedy club. So it's kind of a win-win for 4 both parties. 5 Q. Were you working with David Arvizo in 6 putting this together? 7 A. No, I was doing it myself. 8 Q. Were you having conversations with David 9 Arvizo about what was happening in pursuit of this 10 fund-raiser? 11 A. Oh, yes. He was really hounding me, calling 12 me and asking me a lot of questions. 13 Q. And tell us, give us a sense of it. I mean, 14 how often was he calling, and what was he asking? 15 A. He was calling me like every other day and 16 asking me how much money could be raised. And it 17 was just -- you know, he wanted to know how much 18 money, how much money can be raised. And I told him 19 I thought we could raise probably between seven and 20 $14,000, which was actually quite a bit for a Monday 21 night fund-raiser. But my husband had gotten 22 permission to announce it on the radio station that 23 he was working at at the time. 24 Q. Was his behavior, David Arvizo's behavior, 25 different than what you would expect of people for 26 whom you were doing fund-raisers? 27 A. He made me very suspicious, because I had 28 never done a fund-raiser where someone had asked me 3870 1 how much money was involved. I mean, usually people 2 are just so grateful that you're helping them. And 3 so this was very strange, and I got very suspicious. 4 Q. Did you finally decide to have a 5 conversation with him that dealt specifically with 6 where the money was going to go? 7 A. Well, what I did, was I decided to test him, 8 and I told George what I was going to do. I said, 9 "You know, this is" -- I just started feeling very 10 uneasy. And I said, "You know, there's something 11 strange here. I want to test him to make sure that 12 his intentions are honorable." 13 And so what I did was, I called him up on 14 the phone and I said, "Well, David, I just wanted to 15 let you know, the fund-raiser is going to be at such 16 and such a time, such and such a date, and I need to 17 start getting your bills. You know, I need to get 18 the name of your landlord, I need to get your credit 19 card bills, your gas bills, so we can start paying 20 them." 21 And he became, you know, a little like, 22 "What do you mean? Aren't I just going to get the 23 cash?" And I said, "No, we can, like, pre-pay your 24 rent for six months. We can pay your bills." I 25 said, "No, that's not how it works." 26 And he said, "Well, some people that I owe 27 money to, I just owe them money." And I said, "Give 28 me their names so we can pay them." And he got very 3871 1 agitated. And I said, "Well, listen, this is" -- 2 you know, "The radio station is involved, and that's 3 the way it has to be handled, because they need to 4 have documentation." 5 And then he got very angry at me. 6 Q. All right. You say he got angry at you. 7 How did he manifest that anger? What did he do? 8 What did he say? 9 A. He cursed at me. 10 Q. What did he say? I know this is a little 11 embarrassing, but what did he say? 12 A. He called me a fucking bitch and a 13 mother-fucking whore, and that's when I hung up the 14 phone. 15 Q. Was he angry while he was saying this? 16 A. Oh, he was irate. His whole demeanor 17 changed. 18 Q. And loud? 19 A. Oh, yeah, it was -- he frightened me. I was 20 shaking when I hung up the phone. 21 Q. Did he ever present like that to you before, 22 prior to that date? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Either in person or on the telephone? 25 A. No. 26 Q. And you were frightened by that? 27 A. Uh-huh. 28 Q. What did you do after that telephone call? 3872 1 A. I immediately picked up the phone and called 2 my husband at the radio station. 3 Q. And you discussed with him what had 4 happened; is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was the decision made not to engage in any 7 more conduct with Mr. Arvizo? 8 A. Yes. George was very angry. And really our 9 suspicions are true, were true. I mean, they came 10 to light that he was just wanting money maybe for 11 some other reason, and it wasn't going to go to the 12 bills. So we decided that the fund-raiser was off, 13 we weren't going to do it, and that was it. 14 Q. How many conversations do you think -- 15 telephone conversations do you think you had with 16 Janet Arvizo? 17 A. Probably four at the most. Four or five. 18 Q. During any of those conversations that you 19 had with her, did she ever ask you for assistance? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did she ever ask you for money? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did she ever behave in any way 24 inappropriate, in your mind? 25 A. No. 26 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further 27 questions. 28 THE COURT: Cross-examine? 3873 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. MESEREAU: 3 Q. Good afternoon, Miss Lopez. 4 A. Good afternoon. 5 Q. My name is Tom Mesereau and I speak for 6 Michael Jackson. 7 You thought it very odd that Janet was never 8 at the hospital while her son was apparently dying, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you noted to your husband how strange 12 that was, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you didn't quite believe that she was 15 never there because she was waiting tables, true? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you know at the time she was litigating 18 a sexual assault case with J.C. Penney? 19 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as assuming 20 facts not in evidence and argumentative. 21 THE COURT: Sustained as to assuming facts 22 not in evidence. 23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever know anything 24 about any litigation Janet Arvizo was involved in 25 with anybody? 26 A. No. No. 27 Q. Did David or Janet ever talk to you about 28 their litigation with any company or individual? 3874 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, you learned that Janet brought her 3 children to the comedy camp from East Los Angeles, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you ever visit their home? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Did you ever talk to your husband 9 about where he thought their home was located? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Okay. Okay. You did learn at some point 12 that he visited them in El Monte, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. But you never were there? 15 A. No. He went to pick them up. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Well, Gavin and David. 18 Q. When you spoke to Janet on the phone, did 19 you ever know where she was calling you from? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did she ever mention where she was? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. When you talked to Janet, did you 24 ever ask her why "You're not visiting your dying 25 son"? 26 A. Well, the first conversation I had with 27 Janet was at our home, and it was just comforting, 28 and I hadn't been to the hospital yet. But every 3875 1 other conversation David was there, so, no, I did 2 not. 3 Q. Okay. Did Janet ever visit your home? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Now, to your knowledge, did the three Arvizo 6 children visit your home with David? 7 A. No. Just one. Gavin. 8 Q. Just Gavin? And how many times did he visit 9 your home, if you remember? 10 A. Just once. 11 Q. Okay. And that's the time where suddenly 12 this wallet appeared on a mantle? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And about how high was the mantle, if you 15 remember? 16 A. Probably -- let's see, it wasn't as tall as 17 I was. Probably five feet. 18 Q. Okay. And do you remember seeing the wallet 19 there? 20 A. I don't, because I went directly into the 21 kitchen. 22 Q. Okay. And you don't recall ever meeting 23 Janet in person, correct? 24 A. I don't. 25 Q. Did you visit the hospital at different 26 times or did you typically visit at the same time of 27 day? 28 A. No, different times, just depending on my 3876 1 husband's schedule. 2 Q. Okay. And you thought you visited about six 3 times, right? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. You thought your husband visited about 12 6 times, right? 7 A. I'm not sure how many times he visited. 8 Sometimes he would go after his shift, without me. 9 Q. Okay. Okay. And you're not sure if you've 10 ever met Janet in person, right? 11 A. I don't recall ever meeting her. 12 Q. Were you ever at The Laugh Factory when she 13 was there with her children? 14 A. No, I never went to the comedy camp. 15 Q. Okay. Now, you did know that your husband 16 was teaching the children, right? 17 A. Yes, I did. He spoke about them. 18 Q. Did he talk to you about what they did on 19 stage? 20 A. Oh, yes. He thought they were very 21 talented, especially Gavin. 22 Q. Did he talk to you about Gavin's skit where 23 he would talk about how impoverished they were on 24 stage? 25 A. He didn't go into specifics, no. 26 Q. Was it your understanding the mother would 27 always be there watching the kids talk about their 28 paverty on the stage? 3877 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. ZONEN: Objection, speculation. She 3 wasn't there. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was, 5 "Yes." 6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You indicated that when 7 David told you that Janet was working as a waitress 8 and couldn't be at the hospital, that red flags went 9 up, correct? 10 A. Well, more that she was -- not because she 11 was working as a waitress. I think the red flags 12 went up that she was emotional, and the hospital 13 would make her overcome and she couldn't handle it. 14 That, I thought, was a little strange. 15 Q. Thought it was a little odd. 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. You thought that even with the emotional 18 difficulty, a mother would likely be at the hospital 19 with her dying son? 20 A. Absolutely. 21 Q. And you never saw her there one time? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. Now, you described David as 24 business-like, correct? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Did you tell the sheriffs he had a certain 27 robotic and business-like demeanor about him? 28 A. I don't believe I said "business-like." 3878 1 Robotic, maybe. He was very unemotional. 2 Q. Okay. And you didn't think his behavior was 3 consistent with a father whose son was seriously 4 ill, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. But you always saw him there every time you 7 went to the hospital, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Okay. So basically at that point, 10 you thought both parents' behavior seemed like 11 something was off, true? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But David -- excuse me. Let me rephrase 14 that. 15 How many times did you talk to David on the 16 phone, do you think? 17 A. I'm not sure how many. He called me quite a 18 bit when the fund-raiser -- but I really would see 19 him more at the hospital, or the time that he came 20 to our home. 21 Q. And David told you that Jamie Masada was 22 helping him out financially, correct? 23 A. Yes, he did. 24 Q. And immediately when you met him, he began 25 to sort of hint that he needed money, right? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. You noticed that pretty quickly, didn't you? 28 A. Yes. 3879 1 Q. It went from sort of hints to direct 2 requests at some point, right? 3 A. You know, I think he -- he always skirted 4 the issue with me, because I think he knew that I 5 wasn't really biting. 6 Q. Okay. You weren't -- you weren't what? 7 A. Biting -- 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. -- at his hints. 10 Q. When you didn't bite, did he seem to 11 persist? 12 A. He would, but I wasn't biting. 13 Q. Okay. Was it your impression he began to 14 work more on your husband than you at some point to 15 get funds? 16 A. Probably, yes. I mean, there were many 17 times I wasn't there, so I can't say. 18 Q. Now, you told him at one point he needed to 19 go back to work and take care of his family, 20 correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And did he ever respond to that, that you 23 remember? 24 A. He didn't say anything, but his body 25 language, he got very, like, agitated, like, oh, he 26 didn't like that I said that. 27 Q. At this time you're suspicious as to whether 28 his wife is really working, correct? 3880 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you know? 3 A. I didn't know. 4 Q. Do you know if she was working? 5 A. I didn't know. 6 Q. You didn't know one way or the other, right? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. You thought David was using Gavin and 9 his other children as a tool to seek money, right? 10 A. I thought -- yes, I did. 11 Q. Okay. And you always seemed to anticipate 12 that another hint at money was forthcoming when you 13 were with him, right? 14 A. Well, he always did it, so I kind of started 15 to expect it. 16 Q. Okay. Now, you told the sheriffs that 17 during your phone conversations with Janet, she 18 always seemed to be very grateful, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Very grateful for what you and your husband 21 had done for the family, true? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you talk to her periodically? 24 A. I'm sorry. Now? 25 Q. Did you talk to Janet periodically -- no, 26 no, at the time -- at the time you were interacting 27 with the Arvizos. 28 A. Uh-huh. 3881 1 Q. Let me narrow that better. 2 A. Sorry. 3 Q. At the time you were either visiting Gavin 4 in the hospital or they were visiting your house, 5 you would talk to Janet once in a while, correct? 6 A. At the hospital. Only if she called the 7 hospital. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Now, while you were visiting the hospital, 11 did you know your husband was giving David money 12 from time to time? 13 A. Yes, just, you know, out of his pocket. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. You know, 20, 40, $60, something like that. 16 Q. Right. And Janet would call you from time 17 to time and express her gratitude for all you did 18 for the family, right? 19 A. Only -- I would only speak to her at the 20 hospital, if she happened to call at the hospital. 21 She never called me at home, except the first time 22 to tell us that Gavin was ill. 23 Q. Okay. Okay. Were you in the mall when 24 Gavin kept asking your husband to buy gifts for him? 25 A. Oh, yes. 26 Q. You were there too, right? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. And how many shops do you think you went 3882 1 into? 2 A. Four or five. 3 Q. Okay. And as far as you recall, did Gavin 4 ask your husband to buy him gifts in every shop? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And what kind of shops did you go 7 into? 8 A. Into, like, the Discovery Store. There was 9 a toy store there at that time. There were, 10 actually, I think, two toy stores at that time that 11 have since closed. And I think we went into 12 another, like, shoe store or something like that. 13 Q. And did you find it odd that Gavin would 14 keep asking you to buy gifts for him and the husband 15 would stand -- excuse me, the father would stand 16 there silent? 17 A. I didn't find it odd that Gavin would ask 18 for things. My daughter does the same thing. She 19 asks for toys in every store she goes to. 20 Q. What about the father? 21 A. The father walking away and/or not putting 22 some kind of cap on it I thought was kind of 23 strange. 24 Q. Did Gavin typically ask your husband or you 25 to buy him gifts? 26 A. Whichever one was nearest. 27 Q. He didn't seem to ask his father to buy him 28 gifts? 3883 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did it appear to you he was almost prepped 3 to do this, to go up to you and George to ask you to 4 buy his gifts for him as opposed to going up to his 5 father? 6 A. I don't have any opinion on that. To me, 7 kids do that, so that behavior didn't seem strange 8 to me. It was just David always walking away, out 9 of the store, like, "Okay, go ahead and buy him the 10 gifts." 11 Q. What about the son never asking the father 12 to buy him anything, did you find that strange? 13 A. No, because we didn't think they had any 14 money, so -- 15 Q. Okay. You didn't know, though, did you? 16 A. Know what? 17 Q. You didn't really know how much money they 18 had, did you? 19 A. I didn't know anything about them, other 20 than what my husband told me. 21 Q. Did you know whether or not someone named 22 Louise Palanker had given them 20,000 bucks? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Knew nothing about that? 25 A. I had never met her. Didn't know her. 26 Q. Did you know anything about Louise giving 27 Janet a check for $10,000? 28 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object; assuming 3884 1 facts not in evidence, and irrelevant. 2 THE COURT: Sustained; foundation. 3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know comedian Chris 4 Tucker? 5 A. I know who he is. I've never met him. 6 Q. So you never talked to him about the Arvizos 7 and his experiences? 8 A. No. 9 Q. All right. Now, at some point, you learned 10 that the Arvizo family were visiting Neverland, 11 correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When did you learn the Arvizo family were 14 visiting Neverland? 15 A. One day when we went to visit Gavin at the 16 hospital, he had already been to Neverland. 17 Q. Okay. And did he seem excited about 18 Neverland? 19 A. Oh, over the top. 20 Q. Okay. Did his father talk to you about 21 Neverland? 22 A. That's all they talked about. 23 Q. Did his father talk to you about the fact 24 Michael Jackson had given a truck to the family? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And did Gavin talk about the fact that 27 Michael Jackson had given a truck to the family? 28 A. Yes. 3885 1 Q. Did you ever hear him discuss that Michael 2 Jackson had given a computer to the family? 3 A. I don't remember the computer, but I do 4 remember the car. 5 Q. Did they talk about other gifts that Michael 6 Jackson had given the family, to your knowledge? 7 A. They just talked about the whole experience. 8 They were very -- you know, the movie theater, and 9 the candy, and golf carts, and things like that. 10 Q. Okay. Did you notice David's attitude 11 towards you change after he started visiting Michael 12 Jackson? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. And what was the change all about? 15 A. Well, all of a sudden, we -- our friendship 16 to Gavin was not as important as them being at 17 Neverland. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. It just seemed like a shift; that George's 20 time and compassion for Gavin wasn't as important 21 anymore. 22 Q. Okay. And that bothered you? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss that with David 25 or Janet? 26 A. No. 27 Q. Now, did you learn at some point after you 28 had severed your relationship with the Arvizos that 3886 1 Janet had met with your husband to give him a good 2 luck charm in gratitude for all you had done? 3 A. I knew about that before. It was a little 4 key chain. 5 Q. Okay. Do you know about when that happened? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. Okay. Ever talk to Janet about her 8 experiences at Neverland? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. But you noticed a change in attitude 11 in Gavin and David, right? 12 A. Yes, and the two other children. 13 Q. All of them? 14 A. All of them, yes. 15 Q. They just didn't seem to be as interested in 16 you and George anymore, right? 17 A. Well, it was just such a fantastic, 18 over-the-top kind of experience. 19 Q. And they kept talking about how much Michael 20 had given them, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you get the feeling they were sort of 23 suggesting that maybe you didn't give them enough? 24 A. Maybe, yeah. 25 Q. Okay. Did they talk about gifts that 26 Michael Jackson had sent to the hospital for Gavin? 27 MR. ZONEN: I'll object as to vague as to 28 "they." 3887 1 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me, I'll rephrase it. 2 Q. Did Gavin ever talk to you about gifts 3 Michael Jackson had sent to him at the hospital? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did David ever talk about that? 6 A. I think there was a basket, but I don't 7 remember what was in the basket. They pointed to a 8 basket -- well, David pointed to a basket, but I 9 can't remember what was in it. 10 Q. Okay. Okay. And Gavin kept talking to you 11 about driving golf carts at Neverland, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. They seemed to -- he seemed to be very 14 excited by that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did David tell you they were going to 17 keep visiting Neverland? 18 A. I don't think so. I don't think that came 19 up in the conversation. 20 Q. Did he tell you about numerous visits they 21 had made to Neverland? 22 A. The one that sticks out in my mind is the 23 first one. 24 Q. Okay. Now, did you talk to David on the 25 phone about Neverland, or in person? 26 A. In person at the hospital. 27 Q. At the hospital, okay. Okay. 28 And it was your understanding that Gavin was 3888 1 going back and forth to the hospital for treatment? 2 A. Oh, yes. 3 Q. And was it your understanding that while he 4 was in the middle of his treatments, he and the 5 family went to Neverland? Is that your 6 understanding? 7 A. I believe it was one of the weeks that he 8 was feeling better and he was in remission. 9 Q. Okay. Okay. 10 A. Because he was having chemotherapy. And 11 there were times when he felt better, and right 12 after the treatments, he would feel very bad. 13 Q. You recall your husband going to El Monte 14 and picking up David and his children, true? 15 A. No, just David and Gavin. 16 Q. Okay. And when do you recall your husband 17 going to El Monte and picking up David and Gavin? 18 A. That was when they came to our house, but 19 I'm not sure exactly when, the month or -- 20 Q. Okay. You described to the sheriffs that it 21 was a hot day, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And how did you remember that? 24 A. Because David was -- I mean -- "David." I'm 25 sorry, Gavin was still ill, and I remember being 26 concerned that he shouldn't be outside in his 27 condition when it was hot. 28 Q. And about what time of day did you first see 3889 1 David and Gavin on that occasion? 2 A. I think they came to our house around noon. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. I think. 5 Q. Now, did you know your husband George was 6 buying gifts for Gavin and bringing them to the 7 hospital? 8 A. I bought them also, yes. 9 Q. And did David express gratitude to you for 10 doing that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did Gavin? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Janet? 15 A. She wasn't there, no. 16 Q. Okay. When you talked to her on the phone, 17 though, she expressed gratitude for all you'd done 18 for her family, right? 19 A. But not really -- more spiritually than -- 20 being there with Gavin than financially, no. 21 Q. Okay. Now, you were trying to arrange a 22 benefit in Pasadena, correct? 23 A. Yes. Yes. 24 Q. And that was a club that George had appeared 25 at, correct? 26 A. Yeah, he kind of considers that his home 27 club. That's where he started, and it's one of his 28 favorite clubs. 3890 1 Q. And you told David -- correct me if I'm 2 wrong, you told David that you thought you could 3 raise between seven and $14,000, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what was his reaction to that? 6 A. He was very happy. 7 Q. Okay. You don't know what David was doing 8 with the money he was given by George, do you? 9 A. No, but it was never a lot of money. It was 10 always, you know, money to buy lunch or to -- gas 11 money. It wasn't anything -- it was always less 12 than $100. It wasn't something -- 13 Q. Right. But you don't know what he was doing 14 with that? 15 A. No, we did not. 16 Q. You had suspicions, didn't you? 17 A. No, I -- not about that. 18 Q. Didn't you have suspicions about the fact 19 that he wasn't working, Janet may not be working? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. You didn't know where the money was going, 22 right? 23 A. I was concerned that the family was working 24 on a waitress's -- I mean, living on a waitress's 25 wages, yes. 26 Q. But you never asked her what restaurant she 27 was working at, right? 28 A. No. 3891 1 Q. She never told you where she was waiting 2 tables, correct? 3 A. No. Our conversations were always more, 4 "Thank you for being with Gavin," things like that. 5 Q. When did you ask David to provide you with a 6 list of his creditors? 7 A. In -- I think it was in April, near when the 8 fund-raiser was going to be. 9 Q. And your desire was to control where the 10 money went, correct? 11 A. Well, I wanted to test him, really. It 12 wasn't to control. I wanted to make sure -- if we 13 were going to actually do this and put ourselves 14 out, then I wanted to make sure that the money was 15 going somewhere, and I didn't trust that it was. 16 Q. And did you believe that Gavin didn't have 17 medical insurance at the time? 18 A. No, he told me that he did. 19 Q. Okay. Did he tell you at some point it was 20 going to lapse? 21 A. If he didn't go back to work. 22 Q. Okay. So what did you think the money was 23 going to be raised for? 24 A. To pay their rent, to pay their bills, their 25 electric bill. Things of that nature. 26 Q. Did you learn that they were raising money 27 from any other people at the same time? 28 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as to 3892 1 "they"; vague. 2 MR. MESEREAU: I'll rephrase it. 3 Q. Do you know whether or not Janet was trying 4 to raise money from any other comedian at the same 5 time? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know whether or not Janet was asking 8 Chris Tucker for any support at that time? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Janet was asking 11 Chris Tucker's fiancee for a car at that time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any efforts were 14 made to get money from Michael Jackson at the time? 15 A. No. 16 Q. All right. Did you know Fritz Coleman at 17 the time? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you know whether or not Fritz Coleman 20 had ever visited the Arvizo home? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. And did you -- did you have any 23 knowledge of Fritz Coleman being involved with a 24 fund-raiser for the Arvizos? 25 A. I do now. At the time, I had kind of 26 forgotten about that fund-raiser, because when I 27 think of a fund-raiser, I think about the one that I 28 was planning that never came -- you know, came to 3893 1 be. But I've heard since then that there was a 2 fund-raiser that Fritz did. 3 Q. And in your discussions with Janet, did she 4 ever tell you that she had come across a large sum 5 of money in a civil settlement? 6 A. No. 7 Q. She never mentioned 150,000 to you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You told David you wanted to raise money and 10 actually pay their rent directly; is that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did you discuss where -- excuse me. Did 13 you discuss what you would pay the rent for, what 14 residence? 15 A. I assumed it was the studio apartment. 16 That's the only residence that -- I knew the 17 grandmother had a home, but I meant their residence. 18 Q. And you hadn't been there, correct? 19 A. No. 20 Q. To your knowledge, your husband had not been 21 there either, right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. He'd been to El Monte? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And David said something to you like, 26 "I want cash"; is that correct? 27 A. Well, yes, when I asked -- when I told him 28 that I needed his bills, he said, "Well, I thought I 3894 1 was just going to get the cash." And I said, "Oh, 2 no, that's not how it works." 3 Q. He didn't like that, did he? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. 6 THE COURT: Counsel, let's take our break. 7 (Recess taken.) 8 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel. 9 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. Just 10 a couple more questions. 11 Q. At some point did you learn that the Arvizos 12 had divorced? 13 A. No, not until recently. 14 Q. Okay. And was it your understanding that 15 Janet had applied for welfare? 16 A. I didn't know that. 17 Q. And did you ever learn that she applied for 18 disability? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And you never knew she'd obtained a big 21 settlement of any kind? 22 MR. ZONEN: I'm going to object as asked and 23 answered, irrelevant. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. When did you last 26 see the Arvizos? 27 A. Let's see, probably in the hospital. I 28 don't really recall. 3895 1 Q. Okay. Did the visit to your home happen 2 after Gavin was in the hospital or in the middle? 3 A. Kind of in the middle. His treatment was 4 like a year long. 5 Q. Okay. And do you remember the last time you 6 talked to Janet? 7 A. In the hospital. 8 Q. Okay. Not at your home? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. Now, obviously you learned about your 11 husband's strong disagreement with David, correct? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. You knew that David was calling the radio 14 station, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And at some point you basically severed all 17 ties with the Arvizo family, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And did you ever see them after that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Ever talk to them after that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever discuss any 24 fund-raising plans with anyone else at The Laugh 25 Factory? 26 A. No. We were going to do the fund-raiser at 27 The Ice House. 28 Q. Okay. Did you ever get involved in any 3896 1 efforts with The Laugh Factory to have a 2 fund-raiser? 3 A. I still don't remember that fund-raiser. 4 Q. Did you ever talk to Fritz Coleman about a 5 fund-raiser for Gavin? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. And you were planning the one in 8 Pasadena, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And were you planning it mostly with David? 11 A. No, myself. 12 Q. Okay. Were you talking to the children at 13 all about that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. About whatever role they would play in it? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. And did you get to the point where 18 you were actually doing invitations? 19 A. No. We were going to announce it on the 20 radio. The way it works is, usually you -- the way 21 we were going to do this one was George was going to 22 announce it on the radio station, and then -- the 23 price and the time, and then The Laugh -- I'm sorry, 24 The Ice House was going to take the reservations. 25 Q. How -- did you ever know at any time whether 26 or not Fritz Coleman had made announcements about 27 another fund-raiser for the Arvizos? 28 A. Yes, I think there was a fund-raiser, but we 3897 1 weren't involved in that one. 2 Q. You didn't communicate with anybody about 3 that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So yours was separate and apart from 6 anything that The Laugh Factory was having? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions. 9 THE COURT: Redirect? 10 11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. ZONEN: 13 Q. Ms. Lopez, you said that you thought that 14 Janet's gratitude was spiritual. What did you mean 15 by that? 16 A. Well, she just said -- she said she was 17 praying for us and thanking us for being with Gavin, 18 and for giving him comfort and giving him hope and 19 making him stronger spiritually by being at his 20 bedside. 21 Q. Did she ever say anything to you about money 22 that had been given to David by your husband? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did she ever say anything at all about any 25 of the gifts to the family at all? 26 A. No. 27 Q. Did she ever talk to you about that gift 28 that she gave to your husband, the key chain? 3898 1 A. I thanked her for it, because it meant a lot 2 to George. 3 Q. Could you describe the gift for us? 4 A. It's a -- it's a small key chain. It has a 5 mustard seed in it, and she said that she had had it 6 for -- it was obviously used, and that she'd had it 7 for a long time and she just wanted him to have it. 8 Q. And he accepted it? 9 A. Yes, he did. 10 Q. And was grateful for it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You made the statement that you thought the 13 kids were a tool for David, or something like that? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. Were a tool of David? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Tell me what you meant. 18 A. Well, it just seemed he didn't have a 19 connection with his children. And to me, it seemed 20 like he was using Gavin's illness for gain, 21 financial gain. 22 Q. Did you notice any change in David's 23 behavior as the months went by while Gavin was in 24 the hospital receiving treatment? 25 A. Well, he just kept asking for money. I 26 mean, it was just kind of his M.O. 27 Q. It was consistent? 28 A. Consistent. 3899 1 Q. Every time you were there? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. ZONEN: I have no further questions. 4 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. 7 MR. NICOLA: Your Honor, we'll be re-calling 8 Sergeant Bob Spinner. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. NICOLA: And I would ask permission to 11 reopen my direct. I think my near fatal accident on 12 Friday jarred my thinking process. I was 13 traumatized. 14 THE COURT: You may be seated. You're still 15 under oath. 16 17 ROBERT SPINNER 18 Having been previously sworn, resumed the 19 stand and testified further as follows: 20 21 THE COURT: Did you discuss that with 22 counsel, so they know what -- why you've asked me to 23 do that? 24 MR. SANGER: I don't know why. I was just 25 informed he wanted to do it. 26 MR. NICOLA: I did tell Mr. Sanger this 27 morning at the same time that we talked about 28 calling Mr. Lopez out of order, perhaps. 3900 1 THE COURT: Would you tell him so he knows? 2 I don't want -- I just want you to know in 3 case you're -- 4 MR. SANGER: I don't know. Could we have a 5 moment so I can find out? 6 THE COURT: Yes. Please do. 7 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 8 table.) 9 MR. SANGER: If the question -- if the 10 question is -- if the question is, do I now know I 11 have the general subject matter, and I have no 12 ability to form an opinion as to whether or not it's 13 appropriate to reopen based on what I was just told. 14 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 15 MR. NICOLA: Thank you, Your Honor. 16 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Reopened) 18 BY MR. NICOLA: 19 Q. Detective Spinner, on Friday, you mentioned 20 a series of 19 fingerprints that you made positive 21 identifications on. I'd like to talk to you 22 specifically about the items that are marked in the 23 317 series of sheriff's evidence that you testified 24 you had made identifications on. 25 When you examined those items in the 317 26 series, did all the items that you identified 27 fingerprints on arrive at the same time? 28 A. No, they did not. 3901 1 Q. Would you explain that for the jury, please? 2 A. When I was first assigned the job, I went to 3 the property room to obtain Items 306 and 317, which 4 were the two initial item numbers. I was told, when 5 I got Item 306, that 317 was not available, and it 6 would be available at a later date. 7 I was advised on August the 3rd that the 317 8 that had been -- or part of 317, which had been at 9 the DOJ for laboratory for analysis, was back, and I 10 went out and got it. 11 I was later advised that there were a 12 number -- the remainder of 317 was brought to the 13 forensics lab. When I came back to work on October 14 the 5th, it was locked in the cabinet in the 15 forensics lab and the remainder was in the black 16 briefcase. 17 Q. So you got one portion of it in August? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 MR. NICOLA: May I approach the witness, 20 Your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. NICOLA: Marked as 622. 23 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I am going to 24 object that this is not proper to reopen. It's 25 basically material that's covered, and it's 26 elaboration on something that he brought up in 27 redirect. 28 MR. NICOLA: May we approach, Your Honor, so 3902 1 we do not -- 2 THE COURT: No. I've already given you 3 permission to reopen. Proceed. 4 MR. NICOLA: Thank you. 5 Q. I've placed in front of you Exhibit 622. Is 6 that 622? 7 A. Yes, sir, it is. 8 Q. Okay. 9 MR. NICOLA: May I use your copy, please? 10 MR. SANGER: Okay. 11 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: I'm just going to hold it 12 up. It appears to be nothing more than a couple of 13 timelines, correct? 14 MR. SANGER: I suppose that's not 15 appropriate to publish it until it's an exhibit. 16 MR. NICOLA: There's really nothing on this. 17 MR. SANGER: There is something on it. 18 THE COURT: Counsel, you're required -- 19 MR. NICOLA: It is just a couple of 20 timelines. 21 THE COURT: Counsel, you're required to mark 22 the exhibit, show it to opposing counsel, and then 23 show it to the witness without publishing. 24 MR. NICOLA: I understand. I apologize, 25 Judge. 26 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: What is on 622? 27 A. It appears to be two timelines for the year 28 2004, and one for a brown evidence bag, 529, and for 3903 1 a black briefcase, 470. 2 Q. Okay. Do you recognize Exhibit 470? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. And do you recognize Exhibit 529? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. Beginning with Exhibit 529, can you please 7 open the package up, and how do you recognize that 8 exhibit? 9 A. This is the evidence bag which I received 10 the first grouping of items which were booked into 11 evidence under Sheriff's Evidence Item No. 3-1-7, or 12 317. 13 Q. Okay. On Exhibit 622, can you please note 14 on the timeline? 15 A. Do you want me to write that down? 16 Q. Please write the date that you first opened 17 that bag on the timeline, and on which date -- 18 THE COURT: Has that timeline been marked as 19 an exhibit? 20 MR. NICOLA: It's Exhibit 622, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Is that Exhibit 622? 22 MR. NICOLA: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Go ahead. 24 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: Tell the jury what you just 25 wrote. 26 A. 8-3 of '04. 27 Q. And that's Exhibit No. 529? 28 A. Yes, sir. 3904 1 Q. Okay. Can you tell the jury, please, which 2 items from Exhibit 529 were items that you were 3 later able to make positive identifications of 4 fingerprints in? 5 A. It would have been 317, L, Lincoln; 317-R, 6 Robert; 317-S, Sam; and 317-YY, or yellow-yellow. 7 Q. Do you have a list of the names of those 8 publications? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Okay. Can we start again, please, with the 11 317-L with a name? 12 A. 317-L is December 2000 issue of a magazine 13 entitled "Finally Legal." 14 Q. Okay. And whose fingerprints were in that 15 magazine? 16 A. Star Arvizo. 17 Q. Was there another magazine that was in 529 18 that you made positive identifications of 19 fingerprints out of? 20 A. Excuse me for one minute. 21 317-R, Robert. 22 Q. And the name of that magazine, please? 23 A. Is Hustler's "Barely Legal Hardcore." 24 Q. Could you tell the jury which fingerprints 25 you were able to positively identify in that item, 26 please? 27 A. Three fingerprints from Gavin Arvizo, and 28 one fingerprint from Mr. Jackson. 3905 1 Q. Just for the record, is 317-L - you're too 2 fast - Exhibit 513? 3 A. Yes, sir, it is. 4 Q. And for the record, is 317-R Exhibit 518? 5 A. Yes, it is. 6 Q. You mentioned a couple of other 7 publications? 8 A. 317-S, Sam, which was an unknown date issue 9 of Penthouse magazine with the cover removed. 10 Q. For the record, is that Exhibit 519? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. Was there another publication that you 13 recovered positive fingerprints from which were 14 contained in Exhibit 529? 15 A. 317-YY, yellow-yellow. 16 Q. And that was? 17 A. The name of that was "Al Goldstein's 100 18 Best Adult Videos." 19 Q. And whose fingerprints did you recover in 20 that? 21 A. Gavin Arvizo. 22 Q. And does that appear to be Exhibit No. 504? 23 A. Yes, it does. 24 Q. I'll let you package that up before I ask 25 some more questions, okay? Don't put that away yet. 26 Are each of the publications that you have 27 just described for the jury marked on the front of 28 Exhibit No. 529? 3906 1 A. Yes, they are. 2 Q. Okay. Are there additional items denoted by 3 317 followed by a letter of the alphabet written on 4 Exhibit 529? You don't have to read the list. 5 A. Yes, there are. 6 Q. And at the time that you received Exhibit 7 529, did you conduct an inventory of what was inside 8 the bag compared to what was written on the exterior 9 of the bag? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. Did you find any item missing? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Did you find any item inside the bag 14 that was not accounted for on the outside of the bag 15 by item number? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. Okay. Could you tell the jury, please, what 18 date you began processing Exhibit No. 317-L? And 19 "processing," I mean the procedure that you 20 described for us on Friday. 21 A. Okay. I started -- I obtained the items on 22 8-3 and we started the processing on 8-11. 23 Q. Could you mark that, please, on your Exhibit 24 622? Is it legible? 25 A. Yes, sir. 26 Q. Are you using a pen now? 27 A. Yes, sir. 28 Q. Okay. With respect to Exhibit 317-R, Item 3907 1 317-R, the Exhibit No. 518, could you tell the jury, 2 please, when you began processing that item? 3 A. The same day, 8-11, August 11th. 4 Q. Would you please put that on the timeline as 5 well? 6 Does the same hold true for Items 317-S, 7 Exhibit 519, and 317-YY, Exhibit 504? 8 A. No, 317, Sam, and 317-YY were started on 9 8-12. 10 Q. On August 12th -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- of 2004? Could you put those two items 13 on the timeline as well with the date that you began 14 processing them, please? 15 Just remember we'll have to read that later. 16 A. You've seen my writing. 17 Q. You mentioned that you did not have Exhibit 18 470, the black briefcase, at the time that you had 19 Exhibit 529? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. When were you able to take custody of the 22 black briefcase, Exhibit 470, and check through the 23 contents? 24 A. On 10-5 of '04. 25 Q. On October 5th of 2004? 26 A. Correct. 27 Q. Do you know where the briefcase had been 28 prior to that time? 3908 1 A. I was told it had been -- 2 MR. SANGER: Calls for hearsay, objection. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: Do you want to look at the 5 briefcase now or do you need to? 6 A. No, I don't need to. It's got seals on it. 7 Q. Okay. Did you find fingerprints for which 8 you made a positive identification on any 9 publications that you removed from Exhibit 470, the 10 black briefcase? 11 A. Yes. On three. 12 Q. Could you please tell the jury on which 13 magazines those were, publications, I mean? 14 A. 317-ocean, O, which was -- it was a "Barely 15 Legal" magazine. 16 317-T, Tom, which was a "Visions of Fantasy, 17 A Hard-Rock Affair" magazine. 18 And 317-union, which was a "Visions of 19 Fantasy, Jose's Black Starlett" magazine. 20 Q. Okay. Beginning with Exhibit 515, Item 21 317-O, whose prints did you find in that again? 22 A. It was Mr. Jackson's. 23 Q. And Item 317-T, Exhibit 520? 24 A. Mr. Jackson's. 25 Q. And Item 317-U, which is Exhibit 521? 26 A. Would have been Gavin Arvizo. 27 Q. And on which page of that publication was 28 that print located? 3909 1 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, this is cumulative. 2 It's been asked and answered. 3 THE WITNESS: Page -- 4 THE COURT: Yeah, what is it that you didn't 5 do last week that you're doing now? 6 MR. NICOLA: Just this last part of the 7 timeline, Judge. Didn't ask him any questions about 8 dates of processing, or when he received the 9 material. 10 THE COURT: Well, let's limit it to the 11 dates, then, and not go through the rep -- whose 12 prints are on what. You covered all that last week. 13 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: With respect to those three 14 items, what date did you process them, if they were 15 all on the same day? 16 A. On 317-O, I started processing on October 17 the 5th, and it was completed on October the 12th. 18 Q. Okay. Could you please put that on the 19 timeline? 20 How about Exhibit 520, 317-T? 21 A. On 317-T, again obtained on October 5, and 22 completed on October 12. 23 Q. Can you please write that on the timeline as 24 well, Exhibit 622? And how about Exhibit 521, 25 Exhibit 317 -- Item 317-U? 26 A. 317-U, again initially obtained on 10 -- or 27 October the 5th, and it was completed on October the 28 12th. 3910 1 Q. And could you write that on the timeline as 2 well? 3 At this time, Your Honor, I'd move 622 into 4 evidence and request permission to publish. 5 MR. SANGER: Before the Court rules, could I 6 take a look at it, please? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. SANGER: May I approach to do that? 9 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 10 MR. NICOLA: Would you mind bringing it 11 back, if you're amenable? 12 MR. SANGER: Counsel's asked me to bring it 13 back, so if that's all right, I'll do that. 14 MR. NICOLA: Save me a trip. 15 (Laughter.) 16 MR. ZONEN: A trip. 17 THE BAILIFF: It's on. 18 MR. NICOLA: It's on? 19 THE BAILIFF: It should have been, unless 20 somebody turned it off. 21 THE COURT: What input do you need? 22 MR. NICOLA: I believe that is "Input 4," 23 Your Honor. The Elmo. 24 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: Does -- Exhibit 622, does 25 that exhibit accurately reflect the items of 26 evidence you were able to find identifiable 27 fingerprints from and the dates that you processed 28 them? 3911 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And it also accounts for the items of 3 evidence from which those publications came from? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did you process any of -- any magazine or 6 periodicals that came to you for fingerprint 7 comparison in the month of September that you 8 recall? 9 A. I was gone for the -- for at least three 10 weeks in September on a trip, and I don't believe 11 I did much processing of anything in September. I 12 might have done something at the tail end of 13 September, but I can't recall. 14 Q. Okay. Generally what was the success ratio 15 in checking for fingerprints in these magazines, 16 periodicals? 17 MR. SANGER: Objection. First of all, the 18 question is vague as to which set of magazines. But 19 secondly, that's cumulative. The overall question 20 has been asked and answered with specific numbers. 21 MR. NICOLA: I'm not sure that has, Your 22 Honor. 23 THE COURT: I don't know what you mean by 24 "success ratio." I think we covered that last week. 25 MR. NICOLA: Okay. 26 THE COURT: But I don't know what you mean 27 by that, so I'll sustain a foundation objection. 28 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: Regarding your ability to 3912 1 locate latent prints on the kinds of materials that 2 are in front of you, the 317 series, if -- if you 3 can explain in a percentage, only if you can, please 4 describe for the Court what kind of percentage ratio 5 you can successfully find latent prints on these 6 kinds of items, if you know? 7 MR. SANGER: Objection, foundation. And 8 it's unintelligible. 9 THE COURT: Sustained on foundation. 10 Q. BY MR. NICOLA: Why don't we move on. 11 Were you concerned about contamination of 12 the fingerprints in this case? 13 MR. SANGER: Objection, Your Honor. This is 14 beyond the offer to reopen. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MR. NICOLA: I have no further questions, 17 Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: 622's admitted. 19 MR. NICOLA: Thank you, Your Honor. 20 Do you need those exhibits or.... 21 MR. SANGER: Just leave them. That's fine. 22 May I proceed, Your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION 26 BY MR. SANGER: 27 Q. Sergeant Spinner, how are you? 28 A. I'm fine, sir. 3913 1 Q. Good. And you're retired? 2 A. Yes, sir, I think so. 3 Q. Okay. Not for a little while anyway. 4 First of all, when you talk about -- when 5 you answer the district attorney's questions as to 6 whose fingerprints are on something, that's your 7 opinion; is that correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And fingerprint identification is 10 subjective; is that right? 11 A. It falls into two categories. The initial 12 examination and evaluation I would say is based in 13 fact. The opinion is subjective. 14 Q. All right. So ultimately your opinion -- 15 this is what I was asking, I believe. Ultimately 16 your opinion as to whose fingerprints match is a 17 subjective opinion, correct? 18 A. That would be correct. 19 Q. All right. Now, you indicated -- in this 20 last bit of testimony this afternoon, you indicated 21 that, in essence, you received materials with regard 22 to Item No. 317 from two different locations, right? 23 A. Two different times. 24 Q. Well, okay. Two different times. They were 25 from two different bags, right? 26 A. That's correct, sir. 27 Q. All right. One bag you told us about there 28 was Exhibit 529, which was an evidence bag, right? 3914 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And the other was the briefcase, which was 3 actually 470, Exhibit 470, court exhibit? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And within 470 were a group of magazines, 6 correct? 7 A. Among other items, yes, sir. 8 Q. And some loose pages as well? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And those materials were simply in the 11 briefcase, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. They were not separately put into plastic 14 bags or envelopes or anything else; is that right? 15 A. Not till I got ahold of it, yes, sir. 16 Q. I'm talking about when you received it, 17 those items were not put into separate evidence 18 containers, whether it be a plastic bag, a paper bag 19 or some other form, correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Now, you located ultimately 19 fingerprints 22 that you've talked to the jury about, and we have 23 the comparison boards there; is that correct? 24 That's the right number? 25 A. That's correct. 26 Q. Ten of the prints, including at least one 27 that you attribute to Gavin Arvizo, came from items 28 other than the bag, 529, that you believe came from 3915 1 the Department of Justice; is that correct? 2 A. I haven't totaled it up, but, yeah, I'll 3 take your word for it. 4 Q. I don't want you to take my word for it. Is 5 that approximately correct? Or you can total it up, 6 if you'd like. 7 A. It would be approximately correct, yes, sir. 8 Q. All right. And at least one of the prints 9 from Gavin Arvizo came from something other than 10 Evidence Bag 529; is that correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 MR. NICOLA: Objection. Misstates the 13 evidence, Your Honor. The evidence is one, not "at 14 least one." 15 MR. SANGER: Objection; speaking objections. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. The objection's 17 overruled. 18 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Is that correct, sir? Is 19 that correct? 20 He may have answered. I don't know if the 21 answer came in. 22 THE COURT: He said, "Correct." 23 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you. 24 Q. Now, there were also two other prints that 25 had been identified either as positive or 26 inconclusive, and those two were switched or shifted 27 at a date after your initial reports were written; 28 is that correct? 3916 1 A. Yes, sir. After a review by a third party, 2 yes, sir. That's correct. 3 Q. Let's talk about those two for a moment. 4 You wrote final reports on the various 5 latent print examinations that you did on a certain 6 date in December; is that correct? 7 A. As the item process -- each item was 8 finished, I had a mandate to complete a report 9 within 24 hours of completing each item as I went, 10 so it would -- when the report was written would 11 depend on when the total completion date on that 12 item was -- actually happened. 13 Q. I'm sorry. 14 A. Go ahead. 15 Q. What I'm asking, and maybe I wasn't clear, 16 as of December of 2004, you had final reports 17 written on your identification of the various 18 prints; is that correct? 19 A. December the 17th, yes, sir. 20 Q. All right. And then these two prints were 21 subject to additional reports that you wrote 22 sometime in 2005; is that correct? 23 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. That was due to 24 an agreement that -- 25 MR. SANGER: I'm going to move to strike as 26 nonresponsive. 27 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's correct, sir. 28 THE COURT: Stricken. 3917 1 MR. SANGER: Thank you. 2 Q. One of the prints had been labeled as 3 inconclusive as of December 2004; is that correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And then in January of 2005, you wrote a 6 report indicating that you believed that that should 7 be positive as to Star Arvizo; is that correct? 8 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 9 Q. The other print had been written up, as of 10 December 2004, as inconclusive -- I'm sorry, as 11 positive as to Mr. Jackson, and then you changed 12 that to inconclusive; is that correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And that was based on additional 15 consultation that you had? 16 A. Yes, with Mrs. Hemman and also I.D. Tech 17 Allmeyer of the Santa Barbara Police Department. 18 Q. And I.D. Tech Allmeyer is somebody that 19 you've known for a number of years; is that correct? 20 A. Yes, sir, it is. 21 Q. And he worked for the sheriff's department 22 for quite some time? 23 A. I'm going to guess about four years before 24 he went to another job. 25 Q. So that was not a stranger who you called 26 upon to do a review of the work; is that correct? 27 A. No, but I trust his judgment. 28 Q. All right. Now, you indicated last week 3918 1 that you had examined about 80,000 prints in your 2 career as a latent print examiner; is that correct? 3 A. That's an approximation, yes, sir. 4 Q. 21,000 of them were in this case, correct? 5 A. Approximately, yes, sir, probably close to 6 that. 7 Q. So over one quarter of your experience in 8 comparing latent prints in cases occurred in the 9 Michael Jackson investigation; is that correct? 10 A. It may be -- 80,000 may be slightly low. It 11 could be -- it's -- to say the examination I've done 12 just in this case alone is one quarter of my total 13 experience I don't think is true. 14 Q. Okay. So you want to revise the number 15 upward from 80,000? 16 A. I would say it would be in the -- maybe the 17 100 to 120 figure. Probably not much more than 18 that. 19 Q. Okay. So a fifth -- if those figures are 20 correct, a fifth to a sixth of the prints that 21 you've examined in your career have been in Mr. 22 Jackson's case; is that correct? 23 A. That may be close, yes, sir. It was a large 24 amount that we did all at once. 25 Q. All right. Now, you found 706 latent prints 26 in this case that -- when I say "you found" -- let 27 me withdraw that. 28 The people in the unit who you were working 3919 1 with ultimately found 706 latent prints? 2 A. That's the number we were sent, yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. So when you say "sent," there were 4 people in the Santa Barbara unit and there were 5 people in the Santa Maria unit that were sending you 6 prints? 7 A. They were providing us prints to examine, 8 yes, sir. 9 Q. All right. So 706 of them, right? 10 A. Correct. At my count, yes. 11 Q. And you matched up 20 or so? 12 A. There were 19 positive I.D.s out of that 13 amount, yes. 14 Q. 19 as you testify today, but you had another 15 positive I.D. that you changed back to inconclusive; 16 is that correct? 17 A. Yes, sir, it is. 18 Q. That's why I say 20. 19 A. Yes, sir, 20. 20 Q. Of the 706 prints, there were 178 that you 21 believe were sufficient to make a match if you had 22 something to match it to; is that correct? 23 A. That's correct. Part of those were palm 24 prints, and they weren't all fingerprints. I 25 believe there was 13 palms mixed in that number. 26 Q. Okay. 27 A. If my memory serves me correctly. 28 Q. All right. So 165 fingerprints and 13 palm 3920 1 prints? 2 A. It sounds close, yes. 3 Q. You were asked to compare these fingerprints 4 only -- and palm prints, for that matter, only to 5 the prints that were presented to you for Mr. 6 Jackson and for Gavin Arvizo and for Star Arvizo; is 7 that correct? 8 A. Yes, we had a complete set of fingerprints 9 for Gavin and Star Arvizo, but I only had exemplar 10 fingerprints for Mr. Jackson. 11 Q. I'm sorry, say that -- what did you say? 12 A. I had no palm prints for Mr. Jackson. 13 Q. I see. So you just had fingerprints for Mr. 14 Jackson? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. All right. Now -- let me walk in between 17 everybody here. Excuse me. 18 May I approach, Your Honor? I'm sorry. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Let me show you 743, 744 and 21 745. And I believe that you had already said on 22 direct examination that those are, in essence, 23 blow-ups of the other prints that are in evidence; 24 is that correct? 25 A. That's correct, sir. 26 Q. Now, two of those are rolled prints, inked 27 prints; is that correct? 28 A. Yes, sir. 3921 1 Q. And one is the Livescan, which is a digital 2 film -- I don't want to say "digital film," but a 3 digital representation of the prints; is that 4 correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And how many sets of fingerprints did you 7 have for Star and Gavin Arvizo to work from? 8 A. We had two sets of each. 9 Q. Okay. Now, for some reason you've just 10 shown us -- or let me withdraw that. 11 The prosecutor has shown you and you have 12 identified one set of prints for each one, correct? 13 MR. NICOLA: Objection. Misstates the 14 actual exhibit boards. I'd like counsel to be 15 specific here, or it's vague. 16 THE COURT: Just a moment. The objection's 17 overruled. 18 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Do you have both sets of 19 rolled prints on each exhibit there? 20 A. One set of prints for Star Arvizo has two 21 cards on it, and the one for Gavin Arvizo has one. 22 Q. Okay. Was there another set of rolled 23 prints for Gavin Arvizo that you're aware of? 24 A. Yes. But if my memory serves me correct, 25 they were not -- they really weren't any good. 26 Q. And so those -- you had those redone? Did 27 you have those redone? 28 A. They were redone at my request, yes, sir. 3922 1 Q. Did you also have Star Arvizo's prints 2 redone? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And you wanted to see if a better set of 5 prints could be developed? 6 A. That's correct, sir. 7 Q. Did you believe at the time you looked at it 8 that Mr. Jackson's prints were done appropriately? 9 A. They could have been done better, but 10 they're appropriate, yes. 11 Q. Okay. And the same -- well, let me withdraw 12 that. As far as Star Arvizo's, his first set was 13 done appropriately but could have been better. 14 Would that be your testimony? 15 A. His first set was okay, but they could have 16 been better. As I recall, there was some smearing 17 and areas that really couldn't be seen into as far 18 as the clarity. 19 Q. Okay. Now, we're talking about the known 20 prints or the rolled prints, as they're usually 21 called, of the particular subjects, right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. And one of them being Livescan, but 24 what do you refer to them all as collectively? 25 Known prints? 26 A. I call them exemplar prints. 27 Q. Exemplar prints, all right. And the idea is 28 that if you do not have a good example in your 3923 1 exemplar prints, it makes it more difficult to 2 determine whether or not a print, a latent print, is 3 identifiable; is that correct? 4 A. You have to have -- yes, sir, it is. You 5 have to have the same clarity to be able to see the 6 detail in the known print that you have identified 7 in the latent print. 8 Q. What sorts of things can cause known -- 9 known prints or exemplar prints to be imperfect? 10 A. Deposition pressure. Torquing. When the 11 print's rolled, sometimes the tip will roll faster 12 than the base and you'll get some smearing going on. 13 Q. Imperfections in the paper? 14 A. Normally imperfections in the paper, that 15 the card stock that's used is what's supplied by the 16 state or the FBI, and it's pretty common, standard, 17 and we don't get that much problem. It's a hard 18 cardboard-type paper and it doesn't twist or bend. 19 Q. It doesn't twist or bend, but occasionally 20 something will not show up on the print? 21 A. There might be an area that's blank. That 22 would be deposition pressure. 23 Q. So in other words, there wasn't enough 24 pressure put on the -- on the finger to apply it to 25 the cardboard in order to transfer the ink? 26 A. That could be. Or it wasn't inked properly, 27 if ink was used. 28 Q. Okay. So the finger was not inked properly; 3924 1 therefore, there was not ink on that part of the 2 finger to make the imprint on the paper, correct? 3 A. That would -- that's a loose definition, 4 yes. 5 Q. Okay. Well, I don't want to be too loose. 6 Is that close enough? 7 A. Or there was a blank spot, or there was a 8 bubble, or there was some other reason why there was 9 a -- not a total recording of the friction ridge 10 skin. 11 Q. You talk about torquing. Is that turning 12 the fingers so there's a smudge or a smear or a 13 distortion? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. All right. Are there any other -- in rolled 16 ink prints, are there any other causes that you're 17 aware of of deformation in the print? 18 A. Well, you could have too much pressure also, 19 which will cause the ridges to be wider when they 20 wouldn't normally be, or they will normally either 21 hide some detail because the ridge is flattened out. 22 Q. Too much ink might just cause a blot? 23 A. Too much ink might just cause some pressure, 24 yes. 25 Q. Now, what about the Livescan prints that you 26 have of Mr. Jackson? Can you tell me what 27 deficiencies there are in those particular prints? 28 A. They're a little scattered, possibly because 3925 1 his hands were dry when they were rolled. 2 Q. So not all of the detail was actually 3 transferred to the digital format; is that correct? 4 A. Not all of it in some areas, like below the 5 base of the thumb, shows up, and why it's not there 6 I don't want to hazard a guess. 7 Q. Okay. So in other words, there should be 8 more there -- if it was done properly, there would 9 be more of a print, more ridge detail? 10 A. It would depend on, again, how the prints 11 were rolled and who did it, and how much care was 12 taken, et cetera, et cetera, with the Livescan, 13 because you're not actually using ink. You're 14 relying on moisture, a glass platen, which is then 15 read by the machine to record the prints. 16 Q. Would you agree, based on your experience, 17 that properly rolled ink prints are a better 18 exemplar than Livescan? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Livescan, however, is used because it's more 21 convenient; is that correct? 22 A. I don't know that "convenience" would be the 23 proper word, but it's an overall method to get the 24 fingerprints transferred back and forth, since it's 25 just a digital, for the Department of Justice 26 purposes rather than mailing inked cards. 27 Q. It's a little hard to hear. It's the end of 28 the day, and I think you're trailing off. 3926 1 A. I'll move closer. 2 Q. In other words, Livescan is simply a way to 3 get it directly into a computer system so you can 4 make a disk or send it by e-mail, you can send it 5 off to the DOJ, to the FBI, correct? 6 A. It's a -- yes, sir, it's a quicker way of 7 getting a set of inked -- rolled ink -- rolled 8 fingerprints for identification. 9 Q. One of the reasons it's good to have 10 rolled -- we're going back to rolled, which I kind 11 of like. You said exemplar prints, so let's stick 12 with that. We covered Livescan and inked prints, 13 right? 14 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 15 Q. So it's important to have a good set of 16 exemplar prints so that you can look, as an 17 examiner, to see if ridge detail matches ridge 18 detail from the latent print to the exemplar print, 19 correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. You also need to look at the exemplar print, 22 when comparing it to the latent print, in order to 23 determine if there are any unexplained differences 24 between the two; is that correct? 25 A. Well, you compare the two, latent to known, 26 known to latent, and then you have to work out the 27 discrepancies between the two, yes. 28 Q. All right. 3927 1 THE COURT: Counsel, I'd like to stop a 2 little early, because there's a couple issues we 3 need to take up outside the presence of the jury. 4 MR. SANGER: Yes, sir. 5 THE COURT: I'm going to excuse you now. 6 We'll see you at 8:30 tomorrow morning. And 7 remember, Thursday you won't come in. 8 9 (The following proceedings were held in 10 open court outside the presence and hearing of the 11 jury:) 12 13 THE COURT: We need that door closed back 14 there. 15 THE BAILIFF: I'll get it. 16 THE WITNESS: He took care of it, sir. 17 THE COURT: Let's see, the first issue I 18 wanted to take up was whether or not -- the question 19 of whether or not we should instruct the jury on the 20 1108 and perhaps 1101 evidence before, at the time 21 of taking the evidence, during, after. I like to 22 instruct juries on special points as we go along. 23 I don't know when you intend to start your 24 1108 evidence, now that the ruling's been made. And 25 you don't need to -- since I'm just putting that to 26 you right now, you don't need to answer me now. I'd 27 like to know tomorrow. And if you have a suggested 28 instruction, I think there's a -- there might be a 3928 1 CALJIC that applies. I haven't looked. Anyway -- 2 MR. SNEDDON: Yes, I believe they should be 3 preinstructed. And yes, there is a CALJIC that's 4 been approved by the courts to be given in such 5 situations. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. SNEDDON: And I would anticipate maybe 8 in two weeks, depending on the length of 9 cross-examination of certain witnesses. 10 THE COURT: So that gives everybody time if 11 you want to submit a different instruction or a 12 pinpoint instruction or.... 13 MR. MESEREAU: We'd want to do that, Your 14 Honor. There is some -- for example, burden of 15 proof we think should wait till the end, but there 16 are some preinstructions we would like on that 17 issue. 18 THE COURT: I just put you on notice so you 19 can start feeding me information. That gives me -- 20 I can relax a little bit, because I know we have 21 time to do this right. 22 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you. 23 THE COURT: The second issue is there's a -- 24 one of the -- one of the witnesses who's testified, 25 Kiki Fournier, has called my secretary. And as I 26 understand from my secretary, has contacted both 27 attorneys and she has requested permission to travel 28 outside the United States with her child, or 3929 1 children, I don't know. And she advised my 2 secretary that she could not get agreement from the 3 attorneys on her ability to do that. She's willing 4 to be on a return call for 48 hours if someone needs 5 her. So I need to get your position. 6 I think she's basically testified and been 7 cross-examined. I don't think she's been excused 8 technically, but I don't like to prevent people from 9 going on with their lives when we can make 10 arrangements to allow them to go on with their lives 11 and still be available when they're needed. 12 What's -- 13 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I indicated that that 14 was more than okay with me, that she could go. I 15 anticipated that if we would want to re-call her, we 16 would still have time, because we probably would not 17 have rested by the date she plans on returning, so 18 therefore it shouldn't be a concern in terms of the 19 defense calling her, because she would be available 20 if they wanted to. 21 So as far as I'm concerned, she could do 22 that. If an emergency arose, and we need her to 23 come back, it sounds like she's willing to come back 24 and we would arrange that. So as far as I'm 25 concerned, she can go and should go. 26 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I don't want to 27 interfere with her travel plans at all. Our concern 28 is there is a great likelihood we will re-call her 3930 1 for a lot of reasons I don't want to disclose at the 2 present. 3 THE COURT: Nor do you need to. 4 MR. MESEREAU: It seems to me that her 5 plans -- I don't know where she's going or when she 6 plans to leave. But her plans are to be back in the 7 near future, is that correct? 8 THE COURT: Within -- within 28 days, I 9 think. And I think she plans to leave immediately. 10 You probably know more than I do. My secretary just 11 said we have a problem here, and -- 12 MR. SNEDDON: I can assist the Court and 13 Mr. Mesereau in this regard, Your Honor. My 14 information is she needed to book the tickets today. 15 She was going to leave immediately and she'd be back 16 the first week in May. 17 THE COURT: So that's more than the estimated 18 time I thought. But at any rate, if you're not 19 going to put on your 1108 evidence for two more 20 weeks, I can see that -- it seems to me that's a 21 safe return date for her. 22 MR. MESEREAU: Yeah. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. MESEREAU: Again, I don't want to 25 interfere with her plans. 26 THE COURT: I would require that she sign a 27 statement like -- she's on subpoena, and it's not 28 uncommon. In fact, it's more common than not that 3931 1 we put these people on call, under an agreement, and 2 the code section provides for that. And I would 3 have her sign an agreement to return upon 48 hours' 4 notice if there was an emergency before her return 5 date. 6 And then I would personally go to Europe and 7 get her if she -- 8 MR. MESEREAU: We will agree to that, Your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. Even if it took me 11 months to find her. 12 (Laughter.) 13 THE COURT: I think it's the right thing to 14 do, so I appreciate that. I'll take care of that. 15 Then I think we're through for the day. 16 Thank you, everyone. I'll see you tomorrow at 8:30. 17 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:35 p.m.) 18 --o0o-- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 3932 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE ) 5 OF CALIFORNIA, ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7 -vs- ) No. 1133603 8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 9 Defendant. ) 10 11 12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, 13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby 14 certify: 15 That the foregoing pages 3792 through 3932 16 contain a true and correct transcript of the 17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled 18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at 19 said proceedings on March 28, 2005, and thereafter 20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided 21 transcription under my direction. 22 DATED: Santa Maria, California, 23 March 28, 2005. 24 25 26 27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 3933