1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA 3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION 4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE 5 6 7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ) 8 CALIFORNIA, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 -vs- ) No. 1133603 11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 12 Defendant. ) 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 18 19 WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 2005 20 21 8:30 A.M. 22 23 (PAGES 1333 THROUGH 1397) 24 25 26 27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 BY: Official Court Reporter 1333 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR., 4 District Attorney -and- 5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney 6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS, 7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street 8 Santa Barbara, California 93101 9 10 11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ. 12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ. 13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067 14 -and- 15 SANGER & SWYSEN 16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C 17 Santa Barbara, California 93101 18 -and- 19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ. 20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1334 1 I N D E X 2 3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as "SN" on index. 4 Mr. Zonen is listed as "Z" on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as "A" on index. 5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as "M" on index. Ms. Yu is listed as "Y" on index. 6 Mr. Sanger is listed as "SA" on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as "O" on index. 7 8 9 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 10 11 ARVIZO, Star David 1336-M (cont'd) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1335 1 Santa Maria, California 2 Wednesday, March 9, 2005 3 8:30 a.m. 4 5 THE COURT: Good morning. 6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning. 7 MR. MESEREAU: Good morning. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau? 9 MR. MESEREAU: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor. 10 Whoops. Thank you, Your Honor. 11 12 STAR DAVID ARVIZO 13 Having been previously sworn, resumed the 14 stand and testified further as follows: 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) 17 BY MR. MESEREAU: 18 Q. Star, did you discuss yesterday's testimony 19 with anyone last evening? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you talk to anyone from the sheriff's 22 department last evening? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you talk to anyone from the District 25 Attorney's Office last evening? 26 A. No. 27 Q. Did you discuss your testimony with any 28 attorney? 1336 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you discuss your testimony with any 3 member of your family? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you see any members of your family last 6 evening? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. But never a mention of this case or 9 your testimony? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know someone named George 12 Lopez? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who is George Lopez? 15 A. He's a comedian. 16 Q. And how do you know him? 17 A. From The Laugh Factory. 18 Q. Did you and your family hang out with him at 19 all? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And where did you hang out with George 22 Lopez? 23 A. We went to some of his comedy shows. 24 Q. Did you ever go to his home? 25 A. I didn't. 26 Q. Do you know if any of your family members 27 ever went to his home? 28 A. I think my brother and my dad did. 1337 1 Q. Okay. And did you ever go anywhere besides 2 The Laugh Factory with George Lopez? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Where did you go? 5 A. To his comedy shows and next door to The 6 Laugh Factory to get a drink. 7 Q. Now, George Lopez is on a television series 8 right now, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And have you seen that series? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When did you last speak with George Lopez? 13 A. I don't remember. It was a long time ago. 14 Q. At some point, did your family stop 15 associating with George Lopez? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Approximately when was that? 18 A. I don't remember. 19 Q. Your family had a dispute with him, right? 20 A. My dad did. 21 Q. Well, did anyone else in your family 22 complain about Mr. Lopez? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. Did you ever complain about him? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Did Gavin ever complain about him? 27 A. No. 28 Q. Did your mom ever complain about him? 1338 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know anything about a Mr. Lopez being 3 accused of stealing money from Gavin? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And he was accused of stealing -- 6 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I'm going to 7 object, violation of the 403 order by the Court. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: I'd like to, at this 10 point, go into your testimony before the Santa 11 Barbara Grand Jury. You testified twice before the 12 Santa Barbara Grand Jury, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You were brought to the grand jury, you 15 testified, you left, and then at another date you 16 were brought back again, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who brought you to the Santa Barbara Grand 19 Jury to testify each time, if you know? 20 A. It was one of the sheriffs. 21 Q. Okay. And did the sheriff always bring you 22 home afterwards? 23 A. We probably stood up there. 24 Q. Now, in the Santa Barbara Grand Jury, there 25 was no Judge, right? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. There was no defense attorney, right? 28 A. Yes. 1339 1 Q. There was the prosecutors, the grand jurors, 2 and you, right? 3 A. And the court reporter. 4 Q. Okay. That's right. You testified that 5 there were times when your brother Gavin was 6 extremely ill but your family still brought him to 7 Neverland, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How many times, if you remember, was Gavin 10 seriously ill and still brought to Neverland? 11 A. Um, no. 12 Q. Do you have any idea how many times? 13 A. Most of the time. 14 Q. And was he typically brought to Neverland, 15 when he was ill, by your parents? 16 A. By my dad. 17 Q. Okay. Well, your mother came too, didn't 18 she? 19 A. No. 20 Q. The first visit to Neverland your mother was 21 there also; was she not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was Gavin ill at that point? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Your mother came to Neverland some other 26 occasions, correct? 27 A. After the Miami trip, yes. 28 Q. Did -- to your knowledge, was your mother at 1340 1 Neverland only one time before the Miami trip? 2 A. I think so. 3 Q. Are you sure of that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell anyone that your 6 mother was at Neverland on numerous occasions before 7 the Miami trip? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you ever tell anyone your mother was at 10 Neverland on numerous occasions before the Miami 11 trip and stayed in the guest quarters? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. You think your mother was there the 14 first time and then never came back till after the 15 Miami trip, is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Was Gavin ever at Neverland, when you 18 thought he was very ill, without either parent? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. How many times do you think Gavin was 21 at Neverland, when he was actually ill, with your 22 dad? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I'm sorry, I -- you may not have understood 25 the question, or I may not have made it clear 26 enough. 27 A. Okay. 28 Q. How many times do you recall your father 1341 1 taking Gavin to Neverland when Gavin was ill? 2 A. All the time. 3 Q. A lot of times? 4 A. Yeah, a lot of times. 5 Q. Now, your father was living with your family 6 at that point, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. He was living with your mother at that 9 point, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, someone told me you play 12 football; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And how long have you played football? 15 A. This is my first year. 16 Q. Okay. Now, around the time Gavin was ill, 17 you told people you had a cyst on your brain, 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And your mother did also, right? 21 A. I don't know. 22 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. That's 23 vague as to -- vague. The question's vague as to 24 what party. 25 THE COURT: The question was, "And your 26 mother did also?" And the answer was, "I don't 27 know." So overruled. Next question. 28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You never heard your 1342 1 mother say you had a cyst on your brain to anyone, 2 right? 3 A. She probably told my grandmother. 4 Q. Did you ever hear her tell anyone else? 5 A. She probably did. 6 Q. Why do you say "She probably did"? 7 MR. SNEDDON: I'm going to object. Lack of 8 foundation and personal knowledge. 9 THE COURT: It's nonresponsive. Sustained. 10 The answer is nonresponsive. 11 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Do you want the question read 13 back? 14 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor. 15 (Record read.) 16 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, that's compound, 17 "hear her tell." 18 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question. 19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You think your mother 20 probably told people that; is that what you said? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can I ask you what makes you think she 23 probably told people that? 24 A. Because her son has a cyst on her (sic) 25 brain. 26 Q. Do you still have one? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Has it ever been medically treated? 1343 1 A. No. It's not at that point yet. Well, it's 2 not going to be at that point. 3 Q. You were asked by the prosecutor in front of 4 the Santa Barbara Grand Jury when was the first time 5 you'd had an alcoholic beverage. Do you remember 6 that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And your answer was, "I took one drink on 9 the plane"; is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And is it your testimony that that was the 12 first time you'd ever tasted alcohol? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. You told the grand jury that after 15 you returned from Miami, you probably stayed at 16 Neverland for a month. Do you remember that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And was that true? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. You think you were there for one 21 month after you returned from Miami? 22 A. And then that was the first time we left. 23 After that. 24 Q. Do you think you stayed there for 25 approximately four weeks after you got back from 26 Miami? 27 A. I don't know the exact dates on the month, 28 on that month. 1344 1 Q. Do you remember you told the sheriffs that 2 you looked in the soda can on the plane and saw 3 white wine? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you remember you told the sheriffs you 6 looked in the soda can and saw wine? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How did you know it was wine -- 9 A. Because -- 10 Q. -- if you'd never had a drink before you 11 were on the plane? 12 A. I know how it looks, though. 13 Q. You do? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If you look in a soda can? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury that 18 you and your brother were drinking at Neverland 19 between the time you got back from Miami to the time 20 Jesus drove you off the property, right? 21 A. I don't remember. 22 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just 23 show you the transcript? 24 A. Sure. 25 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 26 THE COURT: Yes. 27 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you. 28 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that page 1345 1 of the grand jury transcript? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Has it refreshed your recollection, excuse 4 me, about what you said? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you did say that you and your brother 7 were drinking alcohol at Neverland between the time 8 you got back from Miami to the time that Jesus drove 9 you off the property, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you claim the first drink you ever had 12 was on the plane and then when you got back you just 13 kept drinking, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you're blaming all of that on Michael 16 Jackson, true? 17 MR. SNEDDON: Object, Your Honor, as 18 argumentative. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You've testified that the 21 only time you ever drank was when Michael Jackson 22 was there, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you've testified you never drank when 25 Michael Jackson wasn't there, right? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Okay. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury 28 that if you wanted to get in the wine cellar, you 1346 1 could, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Yesterday you told this jury you didn't know 4 how to get in yourself, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You didn't tell the truth yesterday, right? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Well -- 9 A. If I really wanted to, but I didn't know how 10 to. 11 Q. You didn't know how to get into the wine 12 cellar? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury: 15 "Q. Would you have been able to get into 16 the wine cellar without Michael Jackson? 17 "A. If I wanted to, yes." 18 Do you remember that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How would you have gotten into that wine 21 cellar if you wanted to? 22 A. I'd search the lounge from top to bottom to 23 find the key. 24 Q. Didn't you tell the Santa Barbara Grand 25 Jury, "There's an easy way to get in"? 26 A. No, I don't remember saying that. 27 Q. Did you tell the Santa Barbara Grand Jury, 28 "It's just like the key would be on the hook in the 1347 1 maid room, because they used to have a resting room 2 thing"? Did you tell them that? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just 5 show you the page of transcript? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Before I do that, you told the Santa 8 Barbara Grand Jury you knew where the key was, 9 right? 10 A. No, I don't remember. 11 Q. Might it refresh your recollection if I show 12 you that page, too? 13 A. Sure. 14 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 17 look at those pages from the grand jury transcript? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do they refresh your recollection about what 20 you said to the Santa Barbara Grand Jury about that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You told them you knew where the key was, 23 right? 24 A. Is that the transcript from the grand jury 25 or from the interviews with -- 26 Q. Grand jury. 27 A. Okay. 28 Q. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury you 1348 1 knew where the key was to the wine cellar, true? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You told them you knew how to get the key, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You told them you knew how to get in, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yesterday you told this jury that you didn't 9 know where the key was or how to get in, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Why did you not tell the truth yesterday? 12 A. The key was on a hook, but we didn't know 13 where it was. 14 Q. The key was on a hook, but you didn't know 15 what it was? 16 A. No, where it was. 17 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, at this point I'd 18 like to read to the jury some lines from the Santa 19 Barbara Grand Jury transcript. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. MESEREAU: It would be page 1578, lines 22 16 through 28, and page 1579, lines 1 to 5. And the 23 date, Your Honor, would be Monday, April 19th, 2004, 24 Volume 7. 25 MR. SNEDDON: I'm sorry, on the second page, 26 1579, how far do you propose going down? 27 MR. MESEREAU: That would be 1 to 5. 28 THE COURT: All right. 1349 1 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 "Q. All right. Why do you say if you 3 wanted to? Wasn't it locked? 4 "A. Because there's an easy way to get in, 5 but we never went into there. 6 "Q. There was an easy way to get in there. 7 How do you mean? 8 "A. No, it's just like the key would be on 9 the hook in the maid room, because they used to have 10 a resting room there. 11 "Q. They used to have a what? 12 "A. About -- they used to have a resting 13 room where they would take their breaks. 14 "Q. Okay. So there was actually a key and 15 you knew where the key was? 16 "A. Yeah. 17 "Q. So would it have been possible for you 18 to get the key and go in there if you wanted to? 19 "A. Yeah." 20 Q. Do you recall telling that to the grand 21 jury? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Why didn't you tell this jury the same 24 thing? 25 MR. SNEDDON: Object, Your Honor. That's 26 argumentative. 27 THE COURT: Sustained. 28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you recall 1350 1 someone from the sheriff's department getting a DNA 2 sample from you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you ever recall someone from the Santa 5 Barbara Sheriff's Department taking like a Q-tip and 6 getting a swab from you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know about when that was? 9 A. Probably in 2003. 10 Q. And did you ever discuss with the 11 prosecution what they used that for? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did anyone from the prosecution or the 14 sheriffs ever tell you any results from any testing 15 of that DNA? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Do you recall in a police interview, 18 when you were discussing Mr. Jackson's bedroom, 19 saying, "There's a camera looking at you"? 20 A. Yes, when you walk through the hallway. 21 Q. And was there a camera that would look at 22 you when you walked through the hallway into the 23 area of Michael Jackson's bedroom? 24 A. When you walked into his bedroom, yes. 25 Q. Do you know what the purpose of that camera 26 was? 27 A. No. 28 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Jackson about why 1351 1 there was a camera looking at whoever walked into 2 his bedroom? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you have any idea if Mr. Jackson could 5 see if anybody was walking into his bedroom through 6 a camera? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Did you talk to Mr. Jackson about it? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, at this point, you had told the police 11 there are sensors that you trip when you go into Mr. 12 Jackson's bedroom, right? 13 A. Hallway. 14 Q. Hallway. That's the hallway going into the 15 bedroom, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And what did you mean by "There are sensors 18 that you trip"? 19 A. A bell goes off. 20 Q. And to your knowledge, where is the camera? 21 A. Above the doorways. 22 Q. And which doorway are you talking about? 23 A. The one where you enter Michael's bedroom. 24 Q. Okay. Now, where is the camera in relation 25 to the stairs that go up into the area where Michael 26 Jackson's bed is? 27 A. It's the first door. It's the double door. 28 Q. Okay. So that's the first door going into 1352 1 the hallway. There's both a sensor that you trip, 2 an alarm that goes off, and a camera, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And the camera produces a videotape, 5 right? 6 A. I think so. 7 Q. Is there a fireplace in Mr. Jackson's 8 bedroom? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And where is that fireplace? 11 A. When you first walk in, you look to the 12 left. 13 Q. And what part of the bedroom is the 14 fireplace in? 15 A. Downstairs, in a big area. 16 Q. And there's a camera with a videotape near 17 that fireplace, correct? 18 A. There's a T.V. right there where it -- where 19 you could see through the camera. 20 Q. Did you tell Santa Barbara Sheriffs in one 21 of your interviews, there are two big sensors as you 22 come into the hallway, right? 23 A. I don't understand "big." 24 Q. Well, you understand there's like sensors, 25 two big sensors, like those ones on the stores, 26 right? 27 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 28 Q. Now, what sensors were you talking about? 1353 1 A. You know how you walk out of the 2 supermarket, and there's like those things to see if 3 you're stealing? 4 Q. Right. 5 A. Those. I was talking about those. 6 Q. And where are those located? 7 A. On both sides when you exit Michael's 8 bedroom. 9 Q. Okay. You say you exit his bedroom. Where 10 exactly are you referring to? 11 A. To the hallway. 12 Q. Okay. Where in the hallway would you find 13 those two big sensors, if you know? 14 A. On both sides. 15 Q. Of the hallway? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now -- 18 A. When you first walked in. 19 Q. -- where are they in relation to the alarm 20 system? 21 A. What alarm system? 22 Q. Well, the bells that go off. 23 A. I don't know exactly where they are. 24 There's -- the sensors I'm talking about, they're 25 right by the door. 26 Q. Okay. Right by the first door when you go 27 into the hallway that leads to his bedroom, correct? 28 A. Yes. 1354 1 Q. That's where the sensors are, right? 2 A. No, they're right by the door when you first 3 enter into Michael's bedroom. 4 Q. Okay. And where are -- where was the camera 5 with the videotape? 6 A. On top of the two doors. 7 Q. Okay. What two doors now? 8 A. The first two -- the second two doors when 9 you enter Michael's bedroom. 10 Q. Okay. There's a camera looking at you, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Have you ever looked at the videotape 14 that that camera works with? 15 A. I never saw the videotape. 16 Q. Okay. Are the seven locks you talked about 17 before the sensors that you said you trip? 18 A. What? 19 Q. You talked about seven locks, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Are the seven locks on the first door? 22 A. They're on the door when you enter Michael's 23 bedroom. 24 Q. Are those locks -- if you're walking into 25 the hallway, planning to go up the stairs into where 26 Michael's bed is -- 27 A. Okay. 28 Q. -- where do you find the seven locks? 1355 1 A. They're on the door when you first enter. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. The double doors. 4 Q. So you first enter the double doors, and you 5 got seven locks, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Where are the sensors that you trip? 8 A. In the hallway. 9 Q. In the hallway. So first you got to use a 10 code, right? The code deactivates seven locks, 11 correct? 12 A. No, it deactivates one lock. 13 Q. What do you do with the other locks? 14 A. You have to open them up from the inside. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Someone has to open it up from the inside. 17 Q. Now, you claim that twice you went in on 18 your own to Mr. Jackson's bedroom, and saw two acts 19 of molestation on your brother, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Was the main door open when you entered? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You didn't have to use a code? 24 A. Yes, I had to use a code. But the seven 25 locks were unlocked. 26 Q. Why would you have to use a code if the door 27 was open? 28 A. I thought -- you still have to use a code to 1356 1 enter his room. 2 Q. Okay. So you had to use a code to get in, 3 but the locks were unlocked, is that what you're 4 saying? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you don't know if the camera was 7 operating, do you? 8 A. Probably was. 9 Q. But the bells went off, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. You said there's a digital piano 12 somewhere in Michael's bedroom area, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And have you used that digital piano? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When did you use it? 17 A. I don't know. I don't remember exactly when 18 I used it. 19 Q. Did you use it often? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You mentioned there were diamonds. Do you 22 remember that? 23 A. No. 24 Q. You told the sheriffs, "There are diamonds 25 in everything." Do you remember that? 26 A. In what? 27 Q. Well, you were describing Michael's bedroom, 28 correct? 1357 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You said there's a digital piano, right? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Little game where you push with your 5 fingers, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. A fireplace, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. A big sword, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. A bunch of pictures of his family, right? 12 A. On a table, yes. 13 Q. And a big-screen T.V. that's like a music 14 box, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And then you said there's a bunch of digital 17 sound, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you said, "Two tables have a bunch of 20 pictures and stuff," right? 21 A. There's one table. 22 Q. Pardon me? 23 A. There's only one table. 24 Q. Well, you told the sheriffs "two tables," 25 didn't you? 26 A. I don't remember saying it. 27 Q. And then you said, "Diamonds in everything," 28 correct? 1358 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What diamonds were you referring to? 3 A. I didn't know what they were called at that 4 time. But I -- I still don't know what they're 5 called, but they're like little fake things on the 6 quilt. They weren't actual diamonds, but -- 7 Q. How did you know they weren't actual 8 diamonds? 9 A. Because -- I don't know. I wouldn't put 10 real diamonds on a quilt. 11 (Laughter.) 12 Q. That's your reason? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. You described the bathroom and you 15 said there are a bunch of razors, right? 16 A. Yes, in a drawer. 17 Q. When did you go into that drawer? 18 A. It was open when we first walked in. 19 Q. And you just went in and checked around? 20 A. No, I just scanned -- I just looked around. 21 Q. Okay. Went through all the drawers, right? 22 A. Draws? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Drawers. 25 Q. Drawers, sure. I'll take your way of 26 describing it. Did you go through all the drawers? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. You and your brother went through all the 1359 1 drawers, right? 2 A. No, we didn't go through them. They were 3 just -- one drawer and it was open. 4 Q. You and your brother went through all the 5 drawers in Michael Jackson's room, didn't you? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You told the sheriffs there's a big dresser 8 with his pajamas, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You and your brother went into that big 11 dresser and looked around, didn't you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You said his closet's next to the stairs, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. The walk-in closet. 16 Q. And you told the sheriffs that Michael 17 Jackson has a bunch of black pants and a bunch of 18 red shirts, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You and your brother have been through every 21 drawer in that main house, haven't you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Well, you went through the drawers in 24 Paris's and Prince's rooms, didn't you? 25 A. No, the only drawers I went through is the 26 kitchen drawers. 27 Q. When did you go through the kitchen drawers? 28 A. When I was trying to cook. 1360 1 Q. Did you go through every kitchen drawer? 2 A. Yes, I was looking for a utensil. 3 Q. Did you cook in the kitchen? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How often did you cook in the kitchen? 6 A. Four times. Four to five times. 7 Q. Did you cook in the kitchen when Michael 8 wasn't around? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the Santa 11 Barbara Sheriffs that there were two instances where 12 Michael Jackson inappropriately touched your 13 brother? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you told them about the first and you 16 told them about the second, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And this is how you described the second 19 time that you claim Michael Jackson inappropriately 20 touched your brother. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. You said, "A second time, where he was, I 23 was pretending like I was sleeping. I was in his 24 couch, the little couch, because he wanted my 25 brother to sleep with him that night. 26 "Q. Were you in his bedroom? 27 "Yes. 28 "Okay. You were in the couch? 1361 1 "He came back when my brother was already 2 knocked out from all the drinking that Michael had 3 him doing, and I was pretending like I was sleeping. 4 And I -- I saw Michael come in, but I was about to 5 say, 'Hi, Michael,' but we called him 'Doo-Doo.'" 6 Do you remember that? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 9 you that portion of the transcript of the police 10 interview? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 15 look at those pages of transcript from your recorded 16 police interview? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you recall telling the Santa Barbara 19 Sheriffs in that interview that the second time you 20 saw your brother inappropriately touched you were 21 not going up the stairs, you were on a couch? 22 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I'm going to 23 object to the question by saying it's "the second 24 time." 25 MR. MESEREAU: That's what it says. 26 MR. SNEDDON: Well -- 27 MR. MESEREAU: It's exactly what it says, 28 Your Honor. 1362 1 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I know you don't want 2 me to say anything, but I can show you transcripts 3 if you give me the opportunity. 4 THE COURT: Are you reading from the actual 5 transcript? 6 MR. MESEREAU: Yes. 7 MR. SNEDDON: Well, what page are you on? 8 MR. MESEREAU: Page 44. 9 MR. SNEDDON: But, see -- 10 MR. MESEREAU: It's -- well, Your Honor, 11 this is my examination. 12 MR. SNEDDON: Doesn't mean you can 13 mislead -- I think we should approach the bench, 14 Your Honor. 15 MR. MESEREAU: It's right here, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Have you found the page he's 17 referring to? 18 MR. MESEREAU: 44. 19 THE COURT: Find the reference he's referring 20 to, please. 21 MR. MESEREAU: And it's videotape 035670, 22 number 104. 23 MR. SNEDDON: Let it go. I'll take care of 24 it another way. Okay. 25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, you were asked a 26 question: "Let me ask you a question now. Did you 27 ever see him doing other things to your brother? 28 "A. A second time, where he was, I was 1363 1 pretending like I was sleeping. I was in his couch, 2 the little couch." 3 Do you remember that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You said that to the sheriffs in that 6 interview, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Yesterday you told the jury the second time 9 you saw Mr. Jackson inappropriately touch your 10 brother, you sneaked up a stairwell, correct? 11 A. Yes, that's correct. 12 Q. You told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs in that 13 interview that the second time you saw Mr. Jackson 14 inappropriately touch your brother, your brother was 15 on his side, and Mr. Jackson was rubbing against 16 your brother, right? 17 A. What? Say it again, please. 18 Q. Yes. Yes. You told the Santa Barbara 19 Sheriffs that Mr. Jackson didn't see you. You said 20 that Mr. Jackson started scooting to your brother; 21 that he hugged your brother and kept on scooting. 22 You said he was moving his hips on your brother. 23 And you said your brother was lying on his side, 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. That's not what you told the jury yesterday, 27 is it? 28 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that's 1364 1 argumentative. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 Just a moment. I'm trying to -- I don't 4 have the transcript here to refer to, so I'm trying 5 to arrange to have it brought over. If you would 6 just wait a second. 7 You may proceed. 8 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. 9 Q. Do you recall in that interview telling the 10 Santa Barbara Sheriffs that you caught Mr. Jackson 11 inappropriately touching your brother on two 12 occasions, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. There was actually three times. 16 Q. That's not what you said before, is it? 17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that's 18 argumentative, and that's -- 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You told the Santa Barbara 21 Sheriffs that Mr. Jackson was masturbating himself 22 and your brother, didn't you? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Well, you were asked a question, "What do 25 you mean by masturbating, and what did you see him 26 do? And you said, "His right hand and his left hand 27 touching my brother." That was your answer to that 28 question, correct? 1365 1 A. Well, I was nervous when I was doing the 2 interview. 3 Q. So because you were nervous, you didn't get 4 the facts right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. You told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs 7 that your family had escaped from Neverland, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, when you say "escaped," was that the 10 night you went to Jesus and asked him to drive you 11 in the Rolls Royce to Los Angeles? 12 A. No. That was the last time we ever left. 13 Q. The last time you left, when you were driven 14 by Vinnie to your grandparents' house? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That was an escape? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How many times do you think your family 19 escaped from Neverland and then went back so they 20 could escape again? 21 A. I don't get the question. 22 Q. Yeah. How many times do you recall your 23 family escaping from Neverland? 24 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your 25 Honor. 26 THE COURT: Overruled. 27 You may answer. 28 THE WITNESS: Do you mean us leaving -- 1366 1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, what do you mean by 2 "escape"? 3 A. -- the last time? 4 Q. Okay. I mean, just tell the jury what 5 "escape" means to you, if you would. 6 A. To me? 7 Q. Yeah. 8 A. I don't know how to explain it, but -- 9 Q. In your mind -- let me start again. You and 10 your family left Neverland a number of times, right? 11 A. Three times, yes. 12 Q. Okay. How many of those were escapes? 13 A. The last one. 14 Q. Okay. Did you ever escape before that? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So your escape was instead of going to 17 Brazil, Vinnie takes you to your grandparents' house 18 and drops you all off, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you remember describing for the Santa 21 Barbara Sheriffs the incident where you say, 22 "Michael Jackson had an erection"? 23 A. No, not really. 24 Q. Well, you described it for the sheriffs in 25 an interview, didn't you? 26 A. I don't know. 27 Q. You told them that Michael Jackson walked in 28 front of you and your brother with an erection, 1367 1 right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when you were asked, "Did you get a good 4 look at Michael's penis when he came out, when he 5 had an erection?" Your answer was, "No," right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You talked to the Santa Barbara Sheriffs 8 about your description of websites that Mr. Jackson 9 and Frank showed you and Gavin, right? 10 A. What? 11 Q. Let me rephrase it. Maybe my question's not 12 good. 13 You, in your interview with the Santa 14 Barbara Sheriffs, told them about websites that you 15 claimed Michael Jackson and Frank showed you and 16 your brother, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And these were websites that you claim had 19 naked women, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you were asked by the sheriffs if you 22 knew where those sites were, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you told them, right? 25 A. I don't remember. 26 Q. Well, you told them "teen p-u-s-s-y dot 27 com," right? 28 A. Okay. 1368 1 Q. You've been to that site yourself, haven't 2 you? 3 A. Not by myself, I never went to that site. 4 Q. Pardon me? 5 A. I never went to that site by myself. 6 Q. So the only time you ever saw that site was 7 the one time with Michael Jackson and Frank? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How did you remember what the site was? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Remember you told the jury yesterday that 12 Frank told you he would have your grandparents 13 killed? 14 A. He has ways, yeah, for my grandparents to 15 disappear. 16 Q. Frank told you that, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs in 19 an interview was that Frank said he'll "have your 20 grandparents killed, you killed, your mother killed, 21 your brother killed, your sister killed, your whole 22 family killed," right? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Is that what you told them? 25 A. I don't remember. 26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 27 you that page of transcript? 28 A. Yes. 1369 1 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 4 look at that page of transcript? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And my question to you is this: Did Frank 7 say he would have your grandparents killed or did he 8 say everybody's going to get killed? 9 A. Well, I remember just me and my 10 grandparents. I might have said something different 11 in there. 12 Q. Okay. But what you recall as you sit here 13 today was just your grandparents being threatened by 14 Frank; is that correct? 15 A. That's all I was able to remember, yes. 16 Q. Okay. But in that particular interview, you 17 did tell the police what it says in the transcript? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That he said "everybody's going to get 20 killed"? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the 23 sheriffs -- I say "police" sometimes. I mean 24 sheriffs. Do you remember telling the sheriffs that 25 there was a little table with a computer on it? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. And where was that table with the computer? 28 A. I don't know how to explain it. 1370 1 Q. Well, it was in the area of Michael's 2 bedroom, wasn't it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And if you can, just -- where was that table 5 with the computer? 6 A. It was against the railing of the stairs. 7 Q. Okay. Was it up in the area where the bed 8 is? 9 A. What do you mean? 10 Q. Well, if you go up the stairs, like you say 11 you did, do you find that little table with the 12 computer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is it near the bed? 15 A. No, it's against the railing. 16 Q. Okay. Against the railing that the stairs 17 sort of, at an incline, kind of goes up to and 18 touches eventually; is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And in those pictures you saw, there's the 21 stairs. And you say you went up, and there's a 22 railing sort of up top; is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And the little table with the computer was 25 next to the railing? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Okay. Did you ever use that computer? 28 A. No. I think it was broken. 1371 1 Q. Why do you think it was broken? 2 A. It was all covered up. 3 Q. Well, do you remember telling the police 4 that that computer did not have Internet access? 5 A. Probably. 6 Q. How did you know it didn't have Internet 7 access? 8 A. There was no -- it wasn't connected. 9 Q. But how did you know that if you never used 10 it? 11 A. We didn't -- it wasn't plugged in. There 12 was no phone line connecting to anywhere. 13 Q. Okay. But my question is, how would you 14 know all that if you never used it? 15 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 19 Q. I'd like to just clarify the schooling you 20 were doing before you first went to Neverland. Now, 21 were you actually in school before you went -- first 22 went to Neverland? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what school was that? 25 A. LeConte Middle School. 26 Q. And at some point you left that school, 27 right? 28 A. Yes. 1372 1 Q. Do you know about when that was? 2 A. When the year was over. 3 Q. And after you left that school -- 4 A. School year was over. 5 Q. Oh. After the school year was over, what 6 did you do as far as your education's concerned? 7 A. My mom was trying to look for a school 8 closer to our area, because going to Hollywood every 9 day was a hassle. So -- but at first she didn't 10 want us put -- she didn't want us to go to a messed 11 up school, so she was trying to look for one. And 12 so we just settled for Hollenbeck Middle School. 13 Q. Okay. But at some point did you tell the 14 jury that you did sort of home study? 15 A. Oh, yes, that was in eighth grade. 16 Q. That was in eighth grade? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Approximately what year was that? 19 A. 2003 to 2004. That was the school year. 20 Q. That's when you're doing home study? 21 A. When I was doing home study, it was closer 22 to the end of eighth grade. 23 Q. Okay. Were you doing home study at any time 24 when you were at Neverland? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Okay. Were you -- 27 A. After we -- after we left Neverland, we went 28 back to school. But then we moved again, so we 1373 1 decided to go into independent study. 2 Q. Okay. Were you ever doing independent study 3 at Neverland? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you ever been into one of those 6 bedrooms in Michael's main house where you see all 7 sorts of school books? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Never seen that room where you see 10 blackboards and school books and school materials? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did Michael ever give you and your brother 13 advice regarding any school subjects? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you remember you were asked by the police 16 what types of things Michael would say to you, and 17 you said, "Like -- like the homework thing, like we 18 never had homework. He just gave us lots of 19 advice"? Do you remember that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 22 a transcript of that portion? 23 A. Sure. 24 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. 26 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that page? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Do you remember you were being asked 1374 1 questions about the rebuttal video, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you were asked by the sheriff if you 4 actually -- excuse me, if Michael actually helped 5 you with your homework, and you said, "Like, we 6 never had homework. Like, he gave us lots of 7 advice." Do you remember that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Why did you tell them he was giving you lots 10 of advice? 11 A. I don't even understand what I said. 12 Q. Okay. When you were discussing the rebuttal 13 video with the sheriffs, do you remember they were 14 asking you questions about were your answers 15 scripted? 16 A. Not really. 17 Q. Well, you were asked if you were ever handed 18 a script. Do you remember? 19 A. I think so. 20 Q. Okay. And what you told them was, "Once I 21 was there, they told me what to say because I only 22 had a couple of lines, but I forgot the lines," 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Is that true? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Okay. So what you said in that rebuttal 28 video was not memorized, was it? 1375 1 A. No, I just said whatever came to my head. 2 Q. Okay. Now, you told the sheriffs that you 3 didn't refer to Michael Jackson as a father or 4 "Daddy," right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you ever do that in any video or 7 interview, to your knowledge? 8 A. No. I don't remember. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Probably did. I don't know. 11 Q. Now, yesterday you told the jury that you 12 used the term "biological father" because you looked 13 up that word, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And I think you told them it wasn't because 16 your mom told you to use it, right? 17 A. No, she never told me to use it. 18 Q. Okay. Do you remember being asked that 19 question by the sheriffs, "Who told you to use that 20 expression, 'my biological father,'" and you said, 21 "Because our mom -- biological, that's how we say 22 that's our father, that's all"? 23 A. I don't know what I said. 24 Q. Do you recall using that word, "Because our 25 mom, biological, that's how we say that's our 26 father"? 27 A. I don't understand what I said. 28 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if 1376 1 I just show you the page? 2 A. Sure. 3 MR. MESEREAU: May I, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: No, he's not saying that he 5 doesn't remember. He's saying he doesn't understand 6 what he said. 7 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, okay. 8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection about how 9 you explained to the sheriffs why you were using the 10 term "biological father" if I showed you this page? 11 A. If -- even though I read it, I still won't 12 understand it. 13 Q. Okay. But you don't recall ever saying, 14 "It's really my mom is the reason I'm calling him 15 'biological father'"; is that right? 16 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I'm going to 17 object to that question as argumentative. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 You may answer. Do you want the question 20 read back? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, please. 22 (Record read.) 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Did any of your 25 period of independent study overlap with your visits 26 to Neverland? 27 A. No. We never had independent study during 28 Neverland. 1377 1 Q. Okay. Okay. So you never traveled to 2 Neverland just to visit while you were doing 3 independent study, right? 4 A. No, this was after all that. 5 Q. Okay. Now, you did tell the sheriffs that 6 your brother Gavin had to drop out of school because 7 of cancer, correct? 8 A. Yes. When he was younger. 9 Q. And when your brother was ill and visiting 10 Neverland, he wasn't in school, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When you say "Yes," let me just make sure 13 that's clear. When your brother Gavin was ill and 14 was visiting Neverland, he was not a student in 15 school, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. He was unable to go to school. 19 Q. Right. Because of his illness. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, you did tell 22 the police that Prince and Paris would often stay in 23 Michael Jackson's bedroom, right? 24 A. I probably said that. I don't know if I 25 did. 26 Q. Well, Prince and Paris did often stay in his 27 bedroom, right? 28 A. Yeah. 1378 1 Q. They're his children, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In fact, the time you claim Michael Jackson 4 made a comment, "Got milk," Prince and Paris were 5 sleeping on his bed, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, you told the sheriffs that the Miami 8 trip came about because of all the stuff that was 9 happening about "Living with Michael Jackson," 10 right? 11 A. I think so. 12 Q. Well, you used the words "because of all the 13 stuff that was happening about the 'Living with 14 Michael Jackson' telecast," right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What stuff were you talking about? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. You don't know? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Didn't you mean all the media attention at 21 school and elsewhere? 22 A. Sure. 23 Q. Okay. And you thought that Michael Jackson 24 was taking your family to Florida for a press 25 conference, right? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. And your family wanted to be in a press 28 conference with Michael Jackson, right? 1379 1 A. Um, we weren't going to be in the press 2 conference. 3 Q. You weren't going to be? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I thought -- 6 A. Just my brother was. 7 Q. Okay. And the reason your mother wanted all 8 of you to go to Florida was because of the press 9 conference, right? 10 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I'm going to 11 object, calls for speculation. No personal 12 knowledge. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you know why 15 your family went to Florida on Chris Tucker's plane? 16 A. So we wouldn't go on commercial. 17 Q. Okay. I'll accept that. 18 Do you know the general purpose of why your 19 family was going to Florida? 20 A. For a press conference. 21 Q. Okay. When you traveled on Chris Tucker's 22 plane, who did you think was going to be in the 23 press conference? 24 A. My brother. 25 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to the hotel where 26 Michael Jackson was staying, you went to his suite, 27 right? 28 A. In the morning. 1380 1 Q. In the morning, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That was the next day after the day you 4 arrived, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And his security were all over the floor, 7 right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How many of Michael Jackson's security 10 people do you think you saw on that floor? 11 A. Seven. 12 Q. Okay. And during that day, you were playing 13 with Prince and Paris, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Prince and Paris were on that floor as well, 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. You told the sheriffs that on the 19 plane back, Prince and Paris were sitting across 20 from Michael, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that's what you recall happened on that 23 plane, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You got Michael and Gavin sitting side to 26 side. You got Prince and Paris sitting across from 27 them, right? 28 A. It was actually my sister and Prince and 1381 1 Paris all in those two seats. 2 Q. But you told the sheriffs that Prince and 3 Paris were sitting across from Michael, right? 4 A. I know, and I also left out my sister. She 5 was on the plane also. 6 Q. Okay. Okay. But what I'm asking is this, 7 and I apologize if I'm not being clear: You told 8 the sheriffs Prince and Paris were sitting across 9 from Michael, right? 10 MR. SNEDDON: Asked and answered, Your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Go ahead. 13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You said your sister was 14 sitting at the end of the couch, right? 15 A. No, I said Marie Nicole was sitting at the 16 end of the couch. 17 Q. Well, did you tell the sheriffs, "There was 18 like a couch, and my sister, she was sitting at the 19 end of the couch, which was facing the side of 20 Michael"? 21 A. At that time I didn't know exactly where my 22 sister was. 23 Q. Well, how would you -- 24 A. Because all I remember is that Aldo and 25 Marie Nicole were sitting on the couch and I was 26 sitting on the seat way in the back. 27 Q. But you did tell the sheriffs that you 28 switched with your sister at one point, right? 1382 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You said, "It's hard to explain, but there 3 was like a couch, and she was sitting at the end of 4 the couch," right? 5 A. Yeah, after we switched probably. 6 Q. Okay. And that was facing the side of 7 Michael, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. And you claim that crank calls were 10 done on the plane, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In front of everybody? 13 A. Just between me, my brother and -- I don't 14 know who else was there. 15 Q. But the plane was packed, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You've got two nannies, all the kids, the 18 doctor, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you remember any security people on the 21 plane? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, did you 24 tell the jury yesterday that Michael gave Gavin a 25 watch on the plane? 26 A. I didn't see the transaction. 27 Q. Okay. 28 A. I just know my brother left the plane with a 1383 1 watch. 2 Q. But didn't you tell the sheriffs that you 3 saw Michael give Gavin a watch at Neverland? 4 A. Yeah, but -- yeah. 5 Q. And you told the sheriffs that you think 6 it's a $75,000 watch, right? 7 A. Yes. That's what Michael said it was. 8 Q. But you told them you saw that transaction 9 at Neverland, correct? 10 A. Well, I probably forgot where I saw it. I 11 just remembered -- right now, I just remember seeing 12 my brother getting off the plane with a watch on his 13 wrist. 14 Q. But that wouldn't have happened if you saw 15 him give the watch at Neverland later on, right? 16 A. Well, I probably might have forgot. 17 Q. So you're not sure when Michael gave Gavin 18 the watch, right? 19 A. No, it could have been at Miami or it could 20 have been on the plane. 21 Q. Okay. And it was at Neverland that you 22 claim there was an effort to get the watch back from 23 Gavin, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And who was trying to get it back from 26 Gavin? 27 A. Dieter. 28 Q. All right. Do you recall telling the 1384 1 sheriffs that Michael would give your sister 2 alcohol? 3 A. I think so. 4 Q. Pardon me? 5 A. I think so. 6 Q. Did your sister ever get alcohol from 7 Michael, to your knowledge? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And where was that? 10 A. In the kitchen. 11 Q. In the kitchen? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And do you recall what kind of 14 alcohol Michael gave your sister in the kitchen? 15 A. She got vodka. 16 Q. Okay. Wasn't in the wine cellar, right? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the sheriffs 19 that after you returned from Miami and went to 20 Neverland, that you weren't in school? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that's because you weren't in school at 23 that point, right? 24 A. We were in school. 25 Q. Pardon me? 26 A. We were in school. 27 Q. But you told them you were not in school, 28 didn't you? 1385 1 A. Wait. Can I read that? 2 Q. Yes. Sure. 3 A. Thank you. 4 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I know what I meant by 7 that. 8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: All right. Did you 9 tell -- pardon me, did you have a chance to review 10 that page? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did you tell the sheriffs you weren't in 13 school? 14 A. Yes. We -- we couldn't attend school. We 15 were, I don't know, 100 miles away. School was 16 still going on, but we weren't attending school. 17 Q. Okay. So are you saying you should have 18 been going to school but you weren't? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's because you were making trips to 21 Neverland, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 MR. MESEREAU: If I could just look at one 25 exhibit, if I may, Your Honor. 26 THE COURT: Yes. 27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, I'm going to show 28 you a photograph that's Exhibit 82? 82. 1386 1 A. Okay. 2 THE BAILIFF: Judge, we need to go to 3 "Input 4." 4 MR. SANGER: There we are. 5 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 6 table.) 7 MR. MESEREAU: There we go. Okay. 8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, do you recall seeing 9 that picture when Prosecutor Sneddon was asking you 10 questions? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you claim you went up the stairwell and 13 saw Mr. Jackson and your brother on that bed on two 14 occasions, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You also told the jury that those lights 17 were off, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You told the jury there was a light on the 20 stairwell that was on, but those lights over the bed 21 were off, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You have also told the grand jury that you 24 only watched for a couple of seconds, right? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. So those lights are off; a light on the 27 stairwell is on; you see it for a few seconds and 28 you run, correct? 1387 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Both occasions? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. You told the sheriffs and the grand 5 jury that every light in the bedroom was off, true? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Didn't you say that? 8 A. Every light in the bedroom was off except 9 the stairwell. 10 Q. Except the stairwell light, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you remember telling Prosecutor Sneddon 13 that at some point you went -- 14 We can take that off. 15 -- you went and got passport visas? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you remember Prosecutor Sneddon showed 18 you an application for a passport -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- right? And do you remember he asked you, 21 "Did you fill it out?" 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you told him, "No," right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And on one of those documents you saw the 26 signature of Vinnie Amen, right? 27 A. No. 28 Q. It was on one of them, wasn't it? 1388 1 A. I think so. 2 Q. Okay. How old were you when you went to get 3 a passport? 4 A. 12. 5 Q. Were you able to fill out a passport 6 application at the age of 12? 7 MR. SNEDDON: I'm going to object, Your 8 Honor. No foundation with regard to -- never mind. 9 It doesn't make any difference. Go ahead. 10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You had never filled 11 out -- 12 THE COURT: Just a moment. 13 MR. SNEDDON: I withdraw the objection, Your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: Well, I'll -- I'm going to act on 16 it, because I think the question is ambiguous. 17 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I'll withdraw it and 18 rephrase it, Your Honor. 19 Q. Had you ever filled out an application for a 20 passport in your life? 21 A. Never. 22 Q. Okay. Had anyone ever showed you how to 23 fill out a passport application? 24 A. I never knew there was a passport. 25 Q. Okay. But you were 12 years old when 26 someone filled out the information on that passport 27 application, correct? 28 A. I never saw the application. 1389 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I just remember taking the picture. 3 Q. Okay. Now, you told the grand jury that you 4 were at a hotel across the street from a theater and 5 an ice cream shop and a riding type of place, right? 6 A. It was like a plaza of all different kinds 7 of shops. 8 Q. Okay. Did you go to those shops? 9 A. I don't remember doing that. 10 Q. Well, you mentioned "ice cream shop." Did 11 you ever go there? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And who took you to the ice cream shop? 14 A. Frank, Vinnie -- well, who went to the ice 15 cream shop? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Frank, Vinnie, my mom, my sister and me and 18 my brother. 19 Q. Did you go to the ice cream shop more than 20 once? 21 A. It was once. 22 Q. Okay. You said there was a riding type of 23 place. Do you remember that? 24 A. Writing type of place? 25 Q. Yeah. 26 A. Okay. 27 Q. Do you know what that was? 28 A. Not really. It was probably a shop where -- 1390 1 I don't know. I don't remember the shop, but -- 2 Q. Okay. But you don't remember giving that 3 description? 4 A. I probably said there's a writing shop, 5 but -- 6 Q. Okay. How did you know there was a riding 7 shop? 8 A. We probably walked by it. 9 Q. Okay. And that's across the street from the 10 hotel? 11 A. Yes, in the plaza. 12 Q. Is that in Calabasas? 13 A. That was the city's name? 14 Q. No, no. Is that the hotel -- that's not the 15 hotel in Florida you stayed at, right? 16 A. No. 17 Q. It's the other hotel in Los Angeles, right? 18 A. I don't think we stayed in Los Angeles. 19 Q. In -- well, in Los Angeles County. In 20 Calabasas. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's where you were staying, right? 23 A. Was that the county? 24 Q. Well, the ice cream shop's across from the 25 hotel, correct? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Okay. And that's where the riding-type 28 place is, right? 1391 1 A. Okay. 2 THE COURT: Excuse me. 3 You're saying "writing," like w-r-i-t-i-n-g? 4 THE WITNESS: Probably. 5 THE COURT: And you're saying "riding"? 6 MR. MESEREAU: "Riding," yes. 7 THE COURT: So let's see if we can get on the 8 same subject. 9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You told -- you said there 10 was a riding, r-i-d-i-n-g, type of place -- 11 A. Oh. 12 Q. -- across from the hotel. Do you know what 13 that was? 14 A. I thought you were saying "writing place." 15 Q. I'm sorry, my mistake. 16 Do you know what you might have been 17 referring to? 18 A. There was a bike shop. 19 Q. A bike shop? 20 A. I don't know exactly. 21 Q. Okay. Do you remember going into the bike 22 shop? 23 A. No. I just -- I was probably just walking 24 by the shop. 25 Q. Okay. 26 A. There was a cell phone cart outside of -- 27 outside of the theater. 28 Q. Okay. Do you know if your mother was 1392 1 carrying a cell phone? 2 A. No. She never had a cell phone. 3 Q. Well, she had a cell phone during the J.C. 4 Penney case, didn't she? 5 A. What do you mean? The old one? She 6 probably did. I don't know. 7 Q. But you've seen your mother with a cell 8 phone, correct? 9 MR. SNEDDON: Object as to when, Your Honor. 10 MR. MESEREAU: At any time. 11 MR. SNEDDON: Lack of foundation. 12 THE COURT: All right. Rephrase the 13 question. 14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you ever seen your 15 mother with a cell phone? 16 MR. SNEDDON: That's the same objection. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. When have you seen 20 your mother with a cell phone? 21 A. The only time I could remember right now 22 is -- it was after all this, and my mom and my 23 stepdad decided to buy a cell phone. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. This was after all that, though. 26 Q. But you saw your mother with a cell phone 27 before the events you've described in court today, 28 didn't you? 1393 1 A. No. 2 Q. You didn't see your mother with a cell phone 3 in her back pocket during the J.C. Penney incident? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. That one -- that one got broke. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Me and my brother. 9 Q. All right. Now, the prosecutor asked you 10 about the interview with the social workers, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You said you didn't remember what you had 13 said, right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. But to the grand jury -- you told the grand 16 jury that you told the social workers Michael 17 Jackson was like a father to you and a good guy, 18 right? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Did you say that? 21 A. Sure. 22 Q. Okay. You told the grand jury that the 23 first time you ever heard about a Brazil trip was 24 from Frank, right? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And you said that was after you talked to 27 the social workers, right? 28 A. Yes. 1394 1 Q. Now, at some point, the Brazil trip got 2 cancelled, right? 3 A. That was when we left the last time. 4 Q. Okay. It was cancelled and you went to 5 Neverland instead, right? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Where did you go? 8 A. The Brazil trip was cancelled because we 9 left the last time. 10 Q. Okay. Left where? 11 A. We never went back. 12 Q. Okay. Never went back to Neverland? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. That was when we went to our grandparents' 16 house. 17 Q. But you left from Neverland to go to your 18 grandparents' house, didn't you? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you never returned and you never went to 21 Brazil, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you remember Prosecutor Sneddon asked you 24 about looking at a movie called "The Devil's 25 Backbone"? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. That's a horror film, isn't it? 28 A. Yes, it was in Spanish. 1395 1 Q. Okay. Can you tell the jury what that film 2 is about? 3 A. Um, it's about a boy that gets left at an 4 orphanage, and he meets a ghost that was killed by a 5 person that takes care of the kids, and the boy 6 finds a way to, like, relieve his soul or something. 7 That's what the movie is about. 8 THE COURT: Counsel? Break time. 9 MR. MESEREAU: Oh. Okay. All right. 10 (Recess taken.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1396 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE ) 5 OF CALIFORNIA, ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7 -vs- ) No. 1133603 8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 9 Defendant. ) 10 11 12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, 13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby 14 certify: 15 That the foregoing pages 1336 through 1396 16 contain a true and correct transcript of the 17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled 18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at 19 said proceedings on March 9, 2005, and thereafter 20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided 21 transcription under my direction. 22 DATED: Santa Maria, California, 23 March 9, 2005. 24 25 26 27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 1397 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA 3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION 4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE 5 6 7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ) 8 CALIFORNIA, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 -vs- ) No. 1133603 11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 12 Defendant. ) 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 18 19 WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 2005 20 21 8:30 A.M. 22 23 (PAGES 1398 THROUGH 1525) 24 25 26 27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 BY: Official Court Reporter 1398 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR., 4 District Attorney -and- 5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney 6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS, 7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street 8 Santa Barbara, California 93101 9 10 11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ. 12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ. 13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067 14 -and- 15 SANGER & SWYSEN 16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C 17 Santa Barbara, California 93101 18 -and- 19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ. 20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1399 1 I N D E X 2 3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as "SN" on index. 4 Mr. Zonen is listed as "Z" on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as "A" on index. 5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as "M" on index. Ms. Yu is listed as "Y" on index. 6 Mr. Sanger is listed as "SA" on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as "O" on index. 7 8 9 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 10 11 ARVIZO, Star David 1452-S 1467-M 12 1476-S (Further) 13 14 ARVIZO, Gavin-Anton 1477-S 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1400 1 E X H I B I T S 2 3 FOR IN DEFENDANT'S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID. 4 5 5002 DVD entitled "Neverland Channel Demo" 1419 1419 6 5003 DVD entitled "Michael Jackson 7 and Gavin, Neverland, 9600" 1426 1426 8 5002 Various cards 1442 1443 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1401 1 THE COURT: You may proceed. 2 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. 3 Q. Star, the day that your family left 4 Neverland with Jesus, do you remember that day? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the driver's name was Jesus Salas, 7 right? 8 A. I didn't know his last name. 9 Q. Okay. Were you with your mother that day? 10 A. That entire day? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Were you with your mother part of that day? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Were you with your mother when she went into 16 Los Olivos and had a body wax that day? 17 A. I don't remember that happening. 18 Q. Okay. So you don't know about that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Do you recall being at Neverland 21 around February 24th, 2003? 22 A. I don't know any of the dates. 23 Q. Okay. Do you remember that your family went 24 for a dental appointment? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And the dental appointment was with a Dr. 27 Seamont, correct? 28 A. I don't remember the doctor's name, but he 1402 1 was a dentist. 2 Q. Okay. You, your mother, Gavin went to the 3 dentist, right? 4 A. Just me and my brother. 5 Q. Pardon me. You and your brother? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was your mother there? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Three of you, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Davellin wasn't there, right? 12 A. Yes, she went back to the ranch. 13 Q. Okay. How did you get to the dentist's? 14 A. By car. 15 Q. Do you know who drove you? 16 A. A guy named Joe. 17 Q. Okay. Was he working at Neverland? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And whose car was it; do you know? 20 A. It was the cook's car. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. It's a van. 23 Q. Okay. And if you know, where was the 24 dentist's office? 25 A. I don't know. 26 Q. Okay. Was it nearby, to your knowledge? 27 A. We just drove there at night. 28 Q. Drove there at night. Okay. 1403 1 And your mother wanted the dentist to remove 2 Gavin's braces, right? 3 A. And also mine. 4 Q. And your braces, too? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did the dentist remove your braces? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did he remove Gavin's braces? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And the driver dropped you all off at 11 the dentist's office, right? 12 A. No, he stood there with us. 13 Q. Stood there with you in the dentist's 14 office? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In the lobby? Or was he with you when you 17 were having your braces removed? 18 A. He was there standing next to us. 19 Q. When you had your braces removed? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Who paid for that dental visit; do 22 you know? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Okay. Did your mother tell the dentist to 25 polish your teeth; do you know? 26 A. It was a long time ago. 27 Q. Don't remember that? 28 A. No. 1404 1 Q. Okay. Do you recall the dentist and his 2 assistant asking you and your brother not to go into 3 the dental supplies? 4 A. That was long -- it was long ago. I don't 5 remember. 6 Q. Okay. Were there phones in the dentist's 7 office? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Didn't see any? 10 A. There was probably some at the front desk. 11 Q. Did you ever call your mother asking you to 12 use the phone? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Let me get back to the grand jury 15 transcript. Okay? 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Do you recall telling the Santa Barbara 18 Grand Jury that the first time you saw Mr. Jackson 19 inappropriately touch your brother, that your 20 brother was looking out towards the far wall? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And what do you mean by that? 23 A. If you're looking at the bed -- 24 Q. Oh. 25 A. -- like the picture we saw earlier -- 26 Q. Sure. 27 A. -- he was facing to the right. 28 Q. Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong, you said 1405 1 Mr. Jackson was lying flat, right? 2 A. Yes, on his back. 3 Q. And he appeared to be sleeping or -- 4 A. Who? 5 Q. Mr. Jackson appeared to be sleeping, 6 correct? 7 A. No. No. 8 Q. Didn't appear to be sleeping? 9 A. He had his eyes closed, but he was 10 masturbating. 11 Q. Okay. So his eyes are closed. You say 12 Mr. Jackson is masturbating, you say your brother is 13 turned towards the far wall -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- right? And you're saying Mr. Jackson has 16 his arm over your brother turned towards the far 17 wall, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And Mr. Jackson is moving his hand, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, when you were speaking to the grand 22 jury, you said there was vodka around, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Well, if you went up the stairs, there's no 25 light over the bed, and you only see what you see 26 for a few seconds, how do you see vodka? 27 A. The light from the stairwell, it wasn't just 28 one light. It was like two lights or something like 1406 1 that. But it was bright enough to shine into the 2 room. 3 Q. Okay. So you see all of this in a few 4 seconds, with all the lights out over the bed, 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Now, did your mother ever complain to 8 you that she wanted to leave the ranch? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know about when that was? 11 A. No. I don't know exactly. 12 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara 13 Grand Jury when you were asked the question, "Star, 14 while you were at the ranch, did you ever have any 15 discussions with your mother about the subject of 16 her wanting to leave the ranch?" and your answer 17 was, "No"? 18 A. I remember her saying it to me. Probably 19 didn't even remember at that time. 20 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 21 you what you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury? 22 A. You told me what I said. 23 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to show 24 you the transcript? 25 A. Okay. 26 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 27 THE COURT: Yes. 28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 1407 1 see that page of transcript? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what 4 you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury under oath? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Your answer to the question was "No," 7 correct? 8 A. Yes, but probably at that time I didn't 9 remember. 10 Q. At that time you didn't remember? 11 A. Yes. Probably. Yes. 12 Q. So your memory's better now than it was when 13 you testified before the Santa Barbara Grand Jury? 14 A. No, after you testify, you remember some 15 things that you didn't say; that you forgot to say. 16 Q. Okay. So your memory is better today than 17 it was March 29th, 2004, right? 18 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever talk to your 22 brother or sister about leaving the ranch? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Just another question about the door leading 25 up to the stairwell to Michael's bedroom. You were 26 asked questions about that while you were in front 27 of the Santa Barbara Grand Jury, correct? 28 A. Okay. 1408 1 Q. You were asked questions by the prosecution? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you remember being asked the 4 following question: "Now, on both occasion -- on 5 the first occasion, you said the door was sort of 6 locked and it came loose. On the second occasion, 7 can you tell us whether or not that door was open or 8 closed?" 9 And your answer was, "It was open. Well, 10 the door was closed, but it was unlocked." 11 Why did you begin by saying, "It was open"? 12 A. Like the lock wasn't locked. 13 Q. Your answer began with the words, "It was 14 open." 15 A. Yeah. The door -- 16 Q. Was it open? 17 A. If it was unlocked, yes. 18 Q. Okay. So you didn't mean the door was open. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You just meant it was unlocked? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury 23 that the first time you saw Michael Jackson 24 inappropriately touching your brother, you had about 25 five or six seconds, and the second time three or 26 four seconds, right? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. And you told them both times the light was 1409 1 out above the bed? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, on both of these occasions that you've 4 described as Mr. Michael Jackson inappropriately 5 touching your brother, did your brother ever move? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know someone named Kiki -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- who works at Neverland? Who's Kiki? 10 A. She's a -- I don't know what her -- she's a 11 house-cleaning lady. 12 Q. Did you have a dispute with her? 13 A. No. We're friends. 14 Q. Okay. You're friends to this day? 15 A. I don't know. I haven't talked to her. 16 Q. Okay. When did you last see her? 17 A. At Neverland. 18 Q. Pardon me? 19 A. At Neverland. 20 Q. Do you know when you last spoke to her? 21 A. At Neverland. 22 Q. Okay. So that's quite a while ago, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury that 25 on a flight coming back from Miami, Dr. Farshshian 26 was facing Michael Jackson, right? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. So he would have been facing Michael Jackson 1410 1 when you claim Michael started licking your 2 brother's hair, right? 3 A. No, my mom was -- she was turned around most 4 of the time. 5 Q. No, I'm talking about Dr. Farshshian. 6 A. Oh, yes. 7 Q. He was facing Michael Jackson the whole 8 time? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Now, you never reported either of 11 these two times you claim Mr. Jackson was 12 inappropriately touching your brother, right? 13 MR. SNEDDON: I'm going to object as vague 14 as to time. 15 MR. MESEREAU: I'll rephrase it. He's 16 right. 17 Q. You didn't immediately go to your mother and 18 report that, did you, when you saw it happen? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You didn't immediately go to your father and 21 report it, right? 22 A. My dad wasn't there. 23 Q. You didn't immediately tell Davellin about 24 it, right? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Okay. And you say you never slept in the 27 theater, right? 28 A. Yes. 1411 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Only my sister and Marie Nicole did. 3 Q. Okay. But you didn't? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. "Yes" means you never slept there, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. When your father was with you at 8 Neverland, did you ever sleep in Michael Jackson's 9 room? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How many times? 12 A. Once. 13 Q. That was the first time you visited 14 Neverland, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And every other time your father was there, 17 you didn't sleep in Michael's room, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. But you're saying the first time you visited 20 Neverland, your father let you sleep in Michael's 21 room? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was your mother there on that trip? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did your mother let you sleep in Michael's 26 room? 27 A. She was probably with my sister. We just 28 asked our dad. 1412 1 Q. Well, you all had dinner in the main house 2 that night, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was there a discussion at the dinner table 5 about whether or not you and Gavin could sleep in 6 Michael Jackson's room? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Did your mother at any time when she 9 was at Neverland ever ask you where you were 10 sleeping in the main house? 11 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. 12 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the Santa 13 Barbara Grand Jury that your mother never asked you 14 one time where you were sleeping in the main house? 15 A. I don't know if I did. 16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just 17 show you the page from the grand jury transcript? 18 A. Okay. 19 MR. MESEREAU: May I, Your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 22 look at that page of the grand jury transcript? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what 25 you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury? 26 A. Yes. I said, "I think so. I don't 27 remember," on the transcript. 28 Q. Well, you said in response to the question, 1413 1 "Did your mother ever ask you where you were 2 sleeping inside the main house?" You said, "No." 3 A. And right below it, it says, "I think so. I 4 don't remember." 5 Q. Do you know, or not? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It says, "Did you ever have a conversation 8 with" -- 9 And you go, "Wait. I think so. I don't 10 remember." 11 Is that what you're referring to? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. But you're not sure if you did? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You never did at the dinner table, though? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Well, then we went further, Star. It says 18 you said, "No," and you said, "I think so." 19 "Let me ask the question again: Did your 20 mother ever talk with you about where you slept 21 inside the main house? 22 "A. No." 23 A. But I don't think so. I don't really 24 remember. 25 Q. Okay. You don't remember saying that to the 26 grand jury, or you don't remember if you talked to 27 your mom about it? 28 A. I don't remember if I talked to my mom about 1414 1 it. 2 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I think I've already 3 done so, Your Honor, but I think I'd like to read 4 that portion of the grand jury -- 5 THE COURT: Give me that citation. I have 6 the transcript now. 7 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. It's page 8 1585. Actually, let me start before that. It's 9 page 1584, lines 22 to 28, and page 1585, lines 1 10 to 6. 11 MR. SNEDDON: The second page, how far did 12 you end up? 13 THE COURT: Do you have a volume? 14 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, I think I do. It would 15 be Volume 6. No, it's Volume 7. 16 THE COURT: I have it. Thank you. 17 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. 18 "Q. Did your mother ever ask you where you 19 were sleeping inside the main house? 20 "A. No. 21 "Q. Did you ever have a conversation with -- 22 "A. Wait. I think so. I don't remember. 23 "Q. I'm sorry? 24 "A. I think so. I don't remember. 25 "Q. I don't? 26 "A. I think so. I don't remember. 27 "Q. You said 'No,' and you said, 'I think 28 so.' Let me ask the question again: Did your 1415 1 mother ever talk with you about where you slept 2 inside the main house? 3 "A. No." 4 Q. Do you remember you told the Santa Barbara 5 Grand Jury that you saw Michael Jackson touching 6 your brother a lot? 7 A. Probably. I don't remember. 8 Q. You said he would try to fix your brother's 9 shirt. Do you remember that? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. You said he would be touching him a lot, 12 right? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. You said, "He would, like, fix his shirt." 15 Do you remember that? 16 A. Not really. 17 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if 18 I just show you that page of the transcript? 19 A. Sure. 20 MR. MESEREAU: May I, Your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 23 look at those pages? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do they refresh your recollection about what 26 you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Okay. You were asked the question, "He 1416 1 would be touching him a lot?" 2 "A. Yeah. 3 "Q. Not his genitals, not his penis? 4 "A. I never saw that." 5 A. At the table. 6 Q. "I saw it in the paper." 7 A. I saw it on paper? 8 Q. That's what you said, right? 9 A. I don't know what I meant by saying not on 10 paper. 11 Q. Now, at the time you claim you watched 12 Mr. Jackson in his bedroom inappropriately touch 13 your brother, you were approximately five-feet-two; 14 is that right? 15 A. Sure. Yeah. I don't -- I don't remember 16 how exactly -- how tall I was. 17 Q. You told the grand jury you were five-feet- 18 two, right? 19 A. I was just guessing. 20 Q. Okay. Do you think you were five-feet-two? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Do you have any idea? 23 A. (Shakes head from side to side.) 24 Q. And you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury on 25 both of the occasions when you claim you saw 26 Mr. Jackson in bed with your brother, you never went 27 to the top of the stairs, right? 28 A. Yes. 1417 1 Q. And you claim that both occasions when you 2 saw Mr. Jackson and your brother, they were not 3 under the sheets, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You said they were on top of a blanket, 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. MESEREAU: At this time, Your Honor, I'd 9 like to play a video, DVD. It would be -- 10 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, if I may, just for 11 bookkeeping purposes, we'd like to have marked for 12 identification next in order a video that's 13 entitled, "Neverland Channel Demo." 14 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Can't hear you. 15 MR. SANGER: Oh. Sorry. 16 I'd like to mark -- to mark next in order a 17 video or CD that is labeled "Neverland Channel 18 Demo." We have discussed this with the District 19 Attorney, Mr. Sneddon. He has no objection to our 20 playing it. 21 THE COURT: What's the exhibit number, then? 22 THE CLERK: It's 5003. 23 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you. 24 THE BAILIFF: Do you want it on the box? 25 MR. SANGER: And if it's acceptable to the 26 Court, we'll play it at this time. 27 THE BAILIFF: Are you playing it out of your 28 computer or -- 1418 1 MR. SANGER: We're going to play it. 2 THE BAILIFF: It's "Input 4." 3 THE COURT: So it's admitted into evidence. 4 There's no objection? 5 MR. SNEDDON: There is none, Your Honor. 6 THE CLERK: I'm sorry, Judge. That should be 7 Exhibit 5002. I skipped one. 8 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I think we need the 9 screen. 10 THE COURT: You need "Input" -- 11 THE BAILIFF: "4." 12 THE COURT: "4"? Are you ready? 13 MR. SANGER: I hope so. 14 (Whereupon, a DVD, Defendant's Exhibit 5002, 15 was played for the Court and jury.) 16 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, you can turn the 17 screen off. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, you had asked 20 Michael Jackson to help you be in a video like that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You never asked Michael Jackson to help you 23 do that video? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Your brother wanted Michael Jackson to help 26 him do a video also, didn't he? 27 A. I can't speak for my brother. 28 Q. Okay. You never heard your brother ask 1419 1 Michael Jackson that? 2 A. No. 3 Q. So as far as you know, Michael Jackson knew 4 nothing about this video you were putting together 5 at Neverland? 6 A. No. He asked me if I wanted to be in it, 7 and I said, "Yes." 8 Q. And you told him you wanted to narrate a 9 video, correct? 10 A. No. I just said, "Okay." 11 Q. You never told Michael Jackson you wanted to 12 be the narrator? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Never told Michael Jackson you wanted to be 15 the center of attention on the Neverland Channel 16 video, right? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. So Michael Jackson, in your mind, was 19 not doing you a favor when he helped you make this 20 video? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. And in your mind, Michael Jackson was 23 not doing Gavin a favor when he helped you make this 24 video, right? 25 A. We didn't have no one to interview, so we 26 interviewed my brother. 27 Q. No one to interview. You had kids 28 everywhere, didn't you? 1420 1 A. No, not at that time. They brought them. 2 Q. To your knowledge, did your mother know you 3 were making this video? 4 A. I don't know if she did or not. 5 Q. Never told her? 6 A. Long time ago. I don't know if she did or 7 not. 8 Q. But you don't recall ever telling your 9 mother that you and Gavin were going to make this 10 video at Neverland? 11 A. My dad knew. 12 Q. Did your mother know? 13 A. I don't know. I can't speak for my mom. 14 Q. Do you remember ever telling your mom, 15 "We're going to make a video at Neverland"? 16 A. No. I don't remember telling her. 17 Q. Do you think she knew about it before you 18 made it? 19 A. I don't know. 20 MR. SNEDDON: Object as asked and answered. 21 MR. MESEREAU: I'll withdraw it. I'll 22 withdraw. 23 Q. Do you ever recall Gavin telling your 24 mother, "We're going to make a video at Neverland"? 25 A. I can't speak for my brother, and I can't 26 speak for my mom. 27 Q. I'm just asking what you heard. Okay? You 28 never heard him discuss it with your mother, right? 1421 1 A. No. 2 Q. After this video was made, did you ever show 3 it to your mother? 4 A. We never got a copy, so I was unable to show 5 it to my mom. 6 Q. Did you ever watch it at Neverland? 7 A. No. After we recorded it, we never saw it. 8 Q. So you've never seen it since you made it, 9 right? 10 A. We saw it at Hamid's house, while we were 11 about to do the rebuttal. 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I found it at Hamid's house. 14 Q. Well, but you were there with your mother 15 then. 16 A. When? 17 Q. At Hamid's. That's where you filmed the 18 rebuttal video. 19 A. My mom, when I got there, she wasn't there. 20 She hasn't -- well, she didn't arrive at that time 21 when I watched it. Vinnie was still picking her up 22 from St. Andrews. 23 Q. Okay. So who watched the video at Hamid's 24 house? 25 A. I think it was me, my brother, and probably 26 my sister. 27 Q. And you never wanted your mother to see it? 28 A. I didn't care if she saw it or not. 1422 1 Q. Okay. Okay. Gavin saw it at Hamid's house? 2 A. Okay, yes. 3 Q. And you saw it at Hamid's house? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How do you know the video was at Hamid's 6 house? 7 A. We were hooking up the Play Station to play 8 "Need for Speed 2," and we saw it above his DVD 9 player. 10 Q. Okay. And that's the first time you had 11 seen it, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And were you excited when you made 14 the video? 15 A. I was kind of tired. 16 Q. You were kind of tired when you made this 17 video? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The Neverland Channel? 20 A. Okay. Whatever you call it. 21 Q. Okay. So you weren't too excited when you 22 made it, right? 23 A. I was kind of sleepy. 24 Q. Okay. And were you excited when it finally 25 got put together? 26 A. What do you mean? 27 Q. Well, when it finally was completed, were 28 you excited? 1423 1 A. At the end of the day? 2 Q. Pardon me? 3 A. I don't -- 4 Q. I'm sorry, let me just rephrase the 5 question. I'll withdraw it. 6 When this video was completed, how old were 7 you? 8 A. When we recorded it? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Fourth grade. 11 Q. Fourth grade? 12 A. Yeah, I had long hair in fourth grade. 13 Q. I'm sorry, pardon me? 14 A. I had long hair in fourth grade. 15 Q. Okay. How old do you think you were when 16 you made this video? 17 A. I don't know. I was probably about 10 or 18 11. 19 Q. And my question to you is, were you excited 20 to narrate a video like this at Neverland? 21 A. No. I was sleepy. 22 Q. Okay. All the time? 23 A. What? During that -- no, I slept really 24 late last night. Well, that night. 25 Q. That night you were sleepy. When you found 26 out you had narrated a video called "The Neverland 27 Channel" at Michael Jackson's ranch, my question to 28 you is, were you excited about it? 1424 1 A. And I said no. 2 Q. Okay. All right. 3 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, with the Court's 4 permission, we're going to ask to play Exhibit 340, 5 which is already in evidence. 6 THE COURT: All right. That's a DVD? 7 MR. SANGER: Yes, sir. 8 Your Honor, just for the record, there are 9 two disks in 340, Disk 1 and 2. And I'm going to 10 put Disk 1 in at this time. 11 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, can I ask a 12 procedural question before we begin this? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. SNEDDON: Since we've already seen it, 15 is this a situation where we're going to play a 16 portion of it and ask questions about it, or are we 17 just going to look at the whole video again, which I 18 think would be repetitive? 19 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me. 20 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 21 table.) 22 MR. SANGER: Oh, I'm sorry. 23 MR. MESEREAU: I can answer that question. 24 We are going to -- next we're going to play the 25 rebuttal video, with your permission, Your Honor, 26 and we're going to stop it and ask questions about 27 it, as we go, of the witness, yes. 28 MR. SANGER: Sorry. 1425 1 THE BAILIFF: You need to use your 2 microphone. 3 MR. SANGER: We're going to -- we had a 4 technical problem. We're going to ask, then, that a 5 DVD that's entitled, "Michael Jackson and Gavin, 6 Neverland 9-6-0-0," that that be marked as defense 7 next in order, and we would like to play that. We 8 have discussed this with the District Attorney, and 9 he has no objection to the foundation or to us 10 playing it. 11 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 12 table.) 13 MR. SNEDDON: Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, we 14 talked about it. That's fine. 15 THE COURT: This one would be 5003, then. 16 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, this I would play 17 and then ask questions after it. The rebuttal video 18 I would be asking questions throughout it. Thank 19 you. 20 THE COURT: There's no objection to it going 21 in evidence, then? 22 MR. SNEDDON: No, Your Honor, there is not. 23 THE COURT: It's admitted. 24 MR. SANGER: Just before we start.... 25 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 26 table.) 27 MR. SANGER: Okay. Are you ready? 28 (Whereupon, a DVD, Defendant's Exhibit 5003, 1426 1 was played for the Court and jury.) 2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, have you seen that 3 video before? 4 A. I think so, yes. 5 Q. In fact, your mother showed that video to 6 the three social workers when they came to Jay 7 Jackson's apartment to interview her about her 8 fitness as a mother and what Michael Jackson had 9 done, correct? 10 A. I don't remember that. 11 Q. Well, she showed that video to the social 12 workers to let them know that Michael Jackson had 13 tried to help heal your brother from cancer, right? 14 A. Are you telling me this, or -- 15 Q. I'm asking a question. 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Okay. Do you remember seeing it with the 18 three social workers? 19 MR. SNEDDON: I'm going to object. Asked 20 and answered. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you appeared in this 23 video, your family had asked Michael Jackson to help 24 them with Gavin, who they thought was dying of 25 cancer, right? 26 A. I never heard my family say that. 27 Q. Never heard anyone in your family say, 28 "Michael, would you please help us, our son is dying 1427 1 of cancer"? 2 A. Probably did. I wasn't there. 3 Q. Okay. Well, it's your understanding that 4 Michael Jackson met your brother because your 5 brother was at Kaiser, in the hospital, and wanted 6 to talk to Michael Jackson, right? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Is that your understanding? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Okay. And your entire family wanted to come 11 to Neverland and asked Michael if he would help them 12 with your brother, who was dying of cancer, right? 13 MR. SNEDDON: I'm going to object. Assumes 14 a fact not in evidence. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ever hear your mother ask 17 Michael Jackson to please help your family because 18 Gavin has terminal cancer, or words to that effect? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you remember hearing Michael Jackson talk 21 about Pac Man and how you can eat up cancer cells? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Never heard that? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Ever hear Michael Jackson encourage 26 your brother to get better, that he could survive 27 this? 28 A. When? 1428 1 Q. One time? 2 A. No, I said when? 3 Q. Anytime. 4 A. Probably told him over the phone. 5 Q. Pardon me? 6 A. Probably told him over the phone. I don't 7 know. 8 Q. To your knowledge, Michael Jackson spent a 9 lot of time with your brother at Neverland trying to 10 encourage him to beat cancer, right? 11 MR. SNEDDON: Objection, Your Honor. Calls 12 for facts not in evidence; lack of foundation. 13 THE COURT: Overruled. 14 He's asking your knowledge, if you know 15 that. 16 THE WITNESS: Michael was only there with 17 Gavin a couple times while he was at Neverland. He 18 wasn't there the whole entire cancer. 19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I didn't ask you 20 that. Let me just ask the question again, because 21 you probably didn't understand it. 22 To your knowledge -- 23 THE COURT: Counsel, he answered your 24 question. Please ask another question. 25 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 26 THE COURT: I don't want you commenting like 27 that. 28 MR. MESEREAU: I apologize, Your Honor. I 1429 1 withdraw that comment. 2 Q. When did you last see this particular video, 3 if you know? 4 A. I don't remember, but it was a long time 5 ago. 6 MR. MESEREAU: At this point, Your Honor, 7 we'd like to play the rebuttal video, which is in 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you. 11 MR. SANGER: For the record, that would be 12 Exhibit 340 and we're going to start with Tape 1 13 of 2. Actually, it says Tape 1 of 2, but it would 14 be DVD 1 of 2. 15 THE BAILIFF: I'm not sure if that's -- 16 MR. SANGER: That's on the film. 17 THE BAILIFF: Oh. 18 MR. SANGER: It will be over in a second. 19 Sorry. 20 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 21 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 22 jury.) 23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you made 24 those comments, were you telling the truth? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Were you lying? 27 A. I was actually talking about my stepdad. 28 Q. You weren't talking about Michael Jackson? 1430 1 A. No; how Jay stepped in and took over where 2 my dad left off. 3 Q. So when you said, "My first impression was 4 like a father. He actually seemed more 5 fatherly-like than my biological father. He -- 6 there is -- I just -- that was my first impression 7 of Michael," you were really talking about Jay 8 Jackson? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Why did you use the name "Michael"? 11 A. Well, because he told us to say good things 12 only about -- because he told us only to say good 13 things about Michael. 14 Q. Okay. So you really were referring to Jay 15 Jackson? 16 A. Exactly. 17 Q. I see. Okay. 18 We can keep going through. 19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 20 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 21 jury.) 22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you heard 23 your mother make those comments about Michael 24 Jackson, did you think she was talking about Jay 25 Jackson? 26 A. I wasn't really listening. I was like 27 practically falling off my chair. 28 Q. So you didn't really hear any of this? 1431 1 A. No, I was really sleepy. It was like 4:00 2 in the morning. 3 Q. So you really don't know what your mother 4 was talking about? 5 A. No. I -- 6 Q. Okay. We can keep going. 7 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 8 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 9 jury.) 10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you said -- Davellin 11 says about Michael, "He gives Gavin advice," and 12 then you say, "He helps me with homework," right? 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Was that the truth? 15 A. No. We didn't even have homework. 16 Q. Was that a lie? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. We can keep going. 19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 20 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 21 jury.) 22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, do you remember 23 making those comments about Michael Jackson? 24 A. Sure. 25 Q. Were you telling the truth? 26 A. No, not really. 27 Q. Were you lying? 28 A. Yeah. On there, yes. 1432 1 Q. So you were lying. 2 So when you said Michael lets you feel like 3 his son, you weren't telling the truth? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when you said he lets you call him 6 "father," you weren't telling the truth? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. "And we call him 'father' and he calls us 9 'son,'" you weren't telling the truth? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you say, "He helps us with basically 12 anything we ask and we love him." When you said 13 that, you weren't telling the truth, right? 14 A. Repeat it. 15 Q. "He helps us with basically anything we ask 16 and we love him." You're saying you weren't telling 17 the truth? 18 A. Yes. The only reason why we did that is 19 because Dieter told us to. 20 Q. So everybody just memorized all these lines? 21 A. I just said whatever came to my head. 22 Q. Okay. Okay. 23 A. I was trying to get out of there. I was 24 kind of tired. 25 Q. I understand. So, so far every statement 26 you've made is a lie, you're saying, right? 27 A. Basically, yes. 28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. We can keep going. 1433 1 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 2 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 3 jury.) 4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, you heard your 5 mother make those remarks, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you think she was lying? 8 A. I wasn't really paying attention. 9 Q. Pardon me? 10 A. Um, I don't know. 11 Q. You don't know, right? 12 A. Yeah, I can't speak for her. 13 Q. I'm just asking what you thought. Did you 14 think your mother was telling lies when she made 15 that statement? 16 A. I wasn't really paying attention. 17 Q. Okay. 18 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 19 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 20 jury.) 21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you heard 22 your mother make the statement, "He claimed these 23 three little munchkins as his kids," did you think 24 your mother was telling the truth? 25 A. Um, no. 26 Q. Did you think your mother was lying? 27 A. No, she was doing what Dieter asked her to 28 do. 1434 1 Q. Did you think she was lying? 2 A. No, she was doing what Dieter asked her to 3 do. 4 Q. So you don't think your mother was acting in 5 a spontaneous kind of way when she answered these 6 questions, right? 7 A. I don't know. It was her emotions. 8 Q. Okay. 9 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 10 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 11 jury.) 12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, did you ever discuss 13 with your mother the idea that Michael Jackson would 14 be a father figure to you? 15 A. To me? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you ever discuss with your mother the 19 notion that Michael Jackson would be a father figure 20 to Gavin? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Ever discuss with your mother the idea that 23 Michael Jackson would be a father figure for your 24 sister? 25 A. No. 26 Q. So you and your mother never talked about 27 Michael Jackson being any kind of a father figure at 28 all, right? 1435 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Keep going. 3 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 4 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 5 jury.) 6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, Star, are you telling 7 the jury, under oath, you never heard Michael 8 Jackson ever mention anything about Pac Man to your 9 brother? 10 A. No. I was yawning in the video -- 11 Q. Pardon me? 12 A. I don't remember even hearing that. 13 Q. Okay. 14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 15 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and 16 jury.) 17 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, that's -- actually, 18 that does that, and that's the end of this tape, so 19 I'm going to stop it, if that's all right. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, you heard your 22 mother say all of her children want to be in movies. 23 Is that a true statement? 24 A. No, I don't want to be in movies. 25 Q. So is your mother lying? 26 A. No, she's doing what Dieter told her to do. 27 Q. Okay. Okay. So as far as you know, none of 28 the children wanted to be in movies; is that right? 1436 1 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I would object. 2 Assumes facts not in evidence. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 You may answer. 5 THE WITNESS: What was the question again? 6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: As far as you know, 7 neither you, Gavin or Davellin ever wanted to be in 8 movies? 9 MR. SNEDDON: It's compound now. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You've said you never 12 wanted to be in movies, right? 13 A. Yes. I'm too shy to act. 14 THE COURT: You're going to put in the other 15 disk? 16 MR. SANGER: I put in Disk 2, if that's all 17 right, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 20 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and 21 jury.) 22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, do you know what 23 your mother is referring to when she mentioned "gang 24 signs"? 25 A. Probably the guy behind the camera was doing 26 something. 27 Q. You say "probably." Is that something you 28 thought at the time? 1437 1 A. At that time? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No. I was just thinking about sleep. 4 Q. Did you think your mother was talking about 5 a cameraman making gang signs? Is that what she was 6 saying? 7 A. She was pointing at off camera, so it 8 couldn't be the cameraman. It had to be someone 9 else. 10 Q. Okay. Let me just get this straight. You 11 think she was talking about the cameraman -- 12 A. No, I know she was talking about not the 13 cameraman, but someone off camera. 14 Q. Making gang signs? 15 A. They probably weren't even doing gang signs. 16 He was probably doing a signal or something. I 17 don't know. 18 Q. But I think what you're saying is you don't 19 know what she was referring to, right? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Now, was it your -- are you telling the jury 22 that while all this was going on, your family was 23 being falsely imprisoned? 24 MR. SNEDDON: Objection. Argumentative, 25 Your Honor. It's a legal conclusion using those 26 words. 27 THE COURT: Sustained. 28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you feel that while 1438 1 this was all going on, your family was not free to 2 leave? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And do you think the way your mother 5 was acting, that she was in fear? 6 A. I don't know. I can't speak for her. 7 Q. Were you in fear? 8 A. I was just sleepy. 9 Q. Okay. All right. 10 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 11 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and 12 jury.) 13 THE COURT: Hold on, please. Take our break. 14 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. 15 (Recess taken.) 16 THE COURT: Go ahead. 17 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. Oops. 18 THE COURT: Do you want me to -- are you 19 ready to continue with the film? 20 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor. 21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 22 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and 23 jury.) 24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star, the person who's 25 doing the interview says, "Davellin, Star, when you 26 guys first went to the ranch, I'm sure you were 27 pretty down." 28 When you first went to Neverland Ranch, were 1439 1 you pretty down? 2 A. The first ever time? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you were down because your brother was 6 ill, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. MESEREAU: Keep going. 9 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 10 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and 11 jury.) 12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you made 13 that statement, were you telling the truth? 14 A. What was the statement? 15 Q. The statement was, "The first time before 16 our brother ever went to the ranch, he was always 17 sad, he was always crying, he was always just down 18 all the time. When he went to the ranch, he was 19 always happy. He was always playful. He was happy 20 again. He was cheerful, and it also gave him 21 something to look forward when we left." 22 Was that a true statement? 23 A. It was kind of true, because my brother was 24 sad and -- what's the other word I used? Well, he 25 was sad and down, because he was going through a 26 life-threatening disease. 27 Q. And he was happy at the ranch, correct? 28 A. Yes. In the beginning, yes. 1440 1 Q. Okay. 2 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 3 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and 4 jury.) 5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At this point, Star, 6 you're trying to speak out, correct? 7 A. No. I was just saying I was sleepy. 8 Q. Well, he said he can hear you, Star, right? 9 A. Yeah. I was complaining. 10 Q. Was it your understanding that this film was 11 supposed to be on a television show? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever learn that this film was 14 supposed to appear on FOX Television? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. 17 We can go forward. 18 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People's 19 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and 20 jury.) 21 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, there's a final 22 piece of evidence we'd like to use that the 23 prosecution wants to look at. It's on DVD. It's a 24 card on DVD, and I think -- is it true you have 25 that? 26 MR. SNEDDON: No. You came up at the break 27 and asked me for something, and it's locked up in 28 evidence at the sheriff's department. 1441 1 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, we have it. I said 2 we'd show it to him. And we're going to try to 3 use -- we're going to try to use the electronic 4 version, and then they'll bring the actual piece of 5 evidence over later, and we can substitute that. 6 So with the Court's indulgence, we need just 7 a minute for them to huddle over here, or somebody 8 to take a look at it, if that's all right. 9 THE COURT: Go ahead. 10 MR. SNEDDON: Do you have it? 11 MR. SANGER: I have it right here. It's on 12 the screen. 13 MR. SNEDDON: Oh, it's on your computer. 14 MR. SANGER: Yeah. 15 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 16 table.) 17 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I have no objection to 18 them using that in lieu of the original for right 19 now, and we'll get the original over here, if not 20 today, tomorrow. 21 THE COURT: All right. We will give it a 22 number now. So it will be 5004. And we'll mark the 23 original when you bring it over. 24 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I believe there are 25 three cards, if I'm not mistaken. But we can mark 26 them as a group as 5004. We don't have to give them 27 separate numbers, unless the Court wants to. 28 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's mark them, 1442 1 three cards, as a group, numbered 5004. 2 MR. SANGER: May I walk around here? I have 3 to hook the thing up to the screen. Is that all 4 right, Your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 THE BAILIFF: It will be "Input 1." 7 THE COURT: "Input 1," okay. 8 THE BAILIFF: And Mr. Mesereau, can you hit 9 the "PC" button? 10 THE COURT: These are agreed they go in 11 evidence? No objection to them going into evidence? 12 MR. SNEDDON: No, none whatsoever, Your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. They're admitted. 15 5004 is admitted. 16 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. 17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Star -- 18 THE BAILIFF: You need to hit "Black 19 Screen." 20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: -- you have sent greeting 21 cards from time to time? 22 A. Your microphone's not on. 23 Q. Excuse me? You're right. 24 THE COURT: They're having trouble hearing 25 you. 26 MR. MESEREAU: You're right. 27 Q. You have sent greeting cards from time to 28 time to people whom you asked for money, true? 1443 1 MR. SNEDDON: Object; assumes facts not in 2 evidence. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The language that you hear 5 on that rebuttal tape is language similar to 6 language you have used in greeting cards to people 7 you were seeking money from, right? 8 A. We were never seeking -- 9 MR. SNEDDON: Object, Your Honor. I object. 10 Assumes facts not in evidence. 11 MR. MESEREAU: I'll start again. 12 Q. Do you know Louise Palanker? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How long have you known Louise Palanker? 15 A. Since the comedy camp. 16 Q. Are you still in touch with her? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When did you last talk to Louise Palanker? 19 A. I think my sister talked to her. I haven't 20 talked to her since -- I don't know exactly. But it 21 was -- it was within this year. Well -- 22 Q. You -- I'm sorry. 23 A. It was within the last year. 24 Q. Okay. You sent Louise Palanker greeting 25 cards and you called her "Mommy," correct? 26 A. I don't remember doing that. 27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you 28 see a greeting card that you signed? 1444 1 A. Sure. 2 MR. SANGER: I take it Your Honor has it on 3 the one where -- 4 THE COURT: I have it on "1." Do you want me 5 to try it on "4"? 6 MR. SANGER: May as well. 7 THE COURT: That's "4." 8 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 9 table.) 10 MR. SNEDDON: I have a suggestion. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. SNEDDON: Since he's only asking him to 13 refresh his recollection, just take the computer and 14 show it to him. 15 MR. MESEREAU: We've moved it into evidence, 16 Your Honor. I'd like the jury to see it, if we can. 17 THE COURT: It is in evidence. 18 THE BAILIFF: It will just be a minute. 19 THE COURT: Do you have a technician coming? 20 THE BAILIFF: We do. 21 THE COURT: There's someone coming to help. 22 I remember when an attorney just had to be 23 able to come into court and talk. 24 (Laughter.) 25 THE COURT: Now they're frozen if the 26 machine doesn't work. 27 MR. SANGER: I understand there's somebody 28 coming down in one second. 1445 1 THE COURT: Yes, somebody's been -- 2 MR. MESEREAU: I can ask a few questions in 3 the meantime, if you'd like, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: That would be good. 5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know whether or not 6 Louise Palanker gave $20,000 to your family? 7 A. I know that she gave it to my dad, yeah. 8 Q. Do you know what the purpose for giving that 9 money was? 10 A. To fix my brother's bedroom at my grandma's 11 house, so he can live in it. 12 THE COURT: Would you like to wait just a 13 moment, so -- 14 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. 15 THE COURT: It would be better to let the 16 technician.... 17 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 18 table.) 19 MR. SANGER: Oh, how about that? 20 Your Honor, I just learned something new. 21 THE BAILIFF: So everything is ready. 22 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 23 THE TECHNICIAN: No problem. 24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You asked Louise Palanker 25 for a computer, didn't you? 26 A. No. That's not my writing. 27 Q. We'll get to that. There's some other 28 pages. 1446 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. Did you ever ask Louise Palanker for a 3 computer? 4 A. Never. 5 Q. Are you aware of anyone else in your family 6 asking Louise for a computer? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Ever get a computer from Louise, to your 9 knowledge? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you this card. 12 It says, "From your boys and girl, Louise Mommy." 13 Do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It says, "You're smiling when I'm happy and 16 you hug me when I'm hurt." Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you call Louise "Mommy"? 19 A. Looks like my sister's writing. 20 Q. Let me ask you if you called her "Mommy," 21 ever? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever hear your sister or Gavin call 24 her "Mommy"? 25 A. No. 26 Q. Do you know why a card was sent to her that 27 said "Mommy"? 28 A. I don't know. 1447 1 Q. Okay. 2 Let's go to some other pages, if we can, 3 Bob. Thanks. 4 Now, who is in that picture? 5 A. Me, my brother, my sister. 6 Q. Okay. Do you know approximately when those 7 photos were taken? 8 A. When my sister was in the Los Angeles 9 Explorers. 10 Q. Okay. Do you know about what year that is? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. Okay. Let's look at this, then. 13 Do you see the message at the bottom? 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. It says, "Dear Louise, I think of you every 16 second of my like (sic) and pray for every night, 17 every morning. I love you. I wish I can spend time 18 with you. Love, Star," right? 19 A. I misspelled "life." 20 Q. That's your writing, though, isn't it? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Okay. The question I have is, you see a 23 message from Gavin and a message from Davellin, 24 right? 25 A. Okay. 26 Q. And why is everybody calling her "Mommy"; do 27 you know? 28 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I'm going to 1448 1 object to that question. 2 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me, I'll rephrase it. 3 Q. Do you have any idea why the card is 4 addressed to "Mommy"? 5 A. "Mommy's" not -- 6 Q. Pardon me? 7 A. "Mommy's" not in my letter. 8 Q. I'm asking about the card. 9 A. I don't know what's written on there. 10 Doesn't look like my writing. 11 Q. Did you see the card before you wrote on it, 12 if you remember? 13 A. No. 14 Q. But did you refer to her as "Mommy" ever? 15 A. No. 16 MR. SNEDDON: Asked and answered, Your 17 Honor. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Let's go to the 20 next card. Okay. Now, this is another card. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. It says, "Dear Louise, once I see you, my 23 day is wonderful. Louise, I miss you. I love you. 24 Every day I want to be with you. Thank you. I love 25 you. Love, Star." Do you see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. Did you often send cards to Louise? 28 A. Not really. 1449 1 Q. Do you remember how many you might have 2 sent? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. Keep going. 5 Do you see that card, Star? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. It says, "Our darling Louise, Wheezy." Do 8 you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that says, "We dearly love you and care 11 about you. We love you to the moon and back. 12 Faithfully, devotedly, your friends, your family, 13 Davellin, David, Gavin, Janet, Star." Do you see 14 that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you used to refer to Louise as being in 17 your family? 18 A. Not really. Just my brother probably did, 19 because she was with my brother during the whole 20 cancer. 21 Q. The question I want to ask you is this: Did 22 you typically call people "family" that your mother 23 was seeking funds from? 24 A. My mom was never seeking funds from -- 25 Q. She never did that with anybody? 26 A. No. 27 Q. Not Chris Tucker? 28 A. No. 1450 1 Q. Not Louise? 2 A. No. You can even ask Louise. My dad was 3 the one trying to seek funds from her. 4 Q. And your mother was never involved in that 5 at all? 6 A. No. 7 Q. How about with Jay Leno? 8 A. I've never met Jay Leno in my life. 9 Q. Are you aware of your mother ever seeking 10 funds from him? 11 A. No. 12 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I have no further 13 questions. 14 THE COURT: Redirect? 15 Are you through with this exhibit? 16 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Do you need it? 18 MR. SNEDDON: No, I don't need it. 19 Your Honor, I'm going to need a moment to 20 get a couple of photographs from the clerk, if you 21 don't mind. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, while that's 24 occurring, did the Court want to -- 25 THE BAILIFF: You have to use the 26 microphone. 27 MR. SANGER: I'm sorry. 28 Did the Court want to have us lodge this DVD 1451 1 with the Court until the physical exhibits are here? 2 THE COURT: That would be a good idea. 3 MR. SANGER: All right. 4 THE COURT: Just temporarily. Temporary 5 Exhibit 5004. 6 MR. SANGER: Thank you. 7 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, with your 8 permission, I'd like to show the exhibits -- the 9 witness some exhibits and put them up on the board. 10 And I'm specifically -- we're going to start with 11 People's No. 50 in evidence. 12 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. SNEDDON: 15 Q. Star, let me begin by asking you some 16 questions about Mr. Jackson's bedroom. How many 17 floors are there to his bedroom? 18 A. One. 19 Q. And how many floors are there in the suite 20 to his bedroom? 21 A. In the suite? 22 Q. Well, let me ask -- let me show you a 23 photograph. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Let me do it this way. I don't want to get 26 sidetracked here. 27 You told the ladies and gentlemen of the 28 jury during your testimony that on the occasion that 1452 1 you saw Mr. Jackson lying on the bed with your 2 brother, that you had to walk up some stairs. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so is the bedroom where you saw those 7 activities occur on the same level as the area 8 below? 9 A. No. 10 Q. I'm going to have to do it one at a time 11 while I'm down here. 12 Now, the exhibit that you have that's in 13 front of you that's People's 50, do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, what door is that? Where does that 16 lead to? 17 A. That's leading to a hallway that leads to 18 the second double door into his bedroom. 19 Q. And in relation to this particular door, is 20 this the door you go through that sets off the 21 sensors? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where about, when you go through those 24 doors, do you actually hear it? 25 A. A little after you pass the duck. The duck. 26 Q. And can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of 27 the jury, what is the sound that you hear when it 28 goes off? 1453 1 A. It's hard to explain. But it goes like 2 "doom-doom-doom." Something like that. 3 Q. How long do you think it is? 4 A. Couple seconds. 5 Q. Is that the only sound that goes off? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The exhibit number on that photograph, I 8 believe, is 53; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you see in that photograph what you were 11 referring to in answering Mr. Mesereau's questions 12 as the sensors? 13 A. What do you mean? 14 Q. Well, he asked you about some sensors. Do 15 you remember that? 16 A. Oh, yes. 17 Q. All right. And what were you referring to? 18 Do you see anything in that photograph that you were 19 referring to in answering his questions? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. What is it? 22 A. It's the silver one to the right of the 23 picture. It's under the picture of a little girl. 24 Q. Now, just wait a second. 25 All right. Now, show the ladies and 26 gentlemen of the jury what you were referring to 27 just a moment ago. 28 A. Okay. 1454 1 Q. So there's one on each side? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, is there a separate key pad entry that 4 you have to touch to get in? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, when you were answering Mr. Mesereau's 7 questions, you indicated that there was a double 8 door you had to go through to get into Mr. Jackson's 9 bedroom. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you see the double doors that you were 14 referring to in your testimony to Mr. Mesereau? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Would you point them out to the jury in this 17 photograph? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. So you're indicating in the middle of the 20 photograph, one on the right and one on the left? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I've now handed you People's 54. Do you 23 recognize that photograph? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, what is that? 26 A. That's the view inside Michael's bedroom. 27 Q. Now, do you see in that photograph the 28 double doors you were referring to in answering Mr. 1455 1 Mesereau's questions? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. Would you point it out to the jury? 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. You're indicating to the right and to the 6 left of the photograph? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, directly ahead in that photograph, do 9 you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is that? What part of the room is 12 that? 13 A. That's the downstairs. 14 Q. The downstairs to what? 15 A. Michael's bedroom. That's the big area. 16 Q. That's the what? 17 A. That's the big area. 18 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony the other 19 day, when we were going through -- and I'm not going 20 to walk through all of them, but we were going 21 through the photographs, you identified an area as a 22 bathroom that had a tub in it. Do you recall that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What floor is that on? 25 A. The first floor. 26 Q. And the area with the piano? 27 A. It's on the first floor also. 28 Q. Now, in that photograph, if one were to 1456 1 enter those doors and want to go to Mr. Jackson's 2 bedroom - okay? - which way would they turn after 3 they come through those doors? 4 A. You would turn to the right. 5 Q. And then after you turn to the right, where 6 would you have to go? 7 A. You would have to open up a door and turn to 8 your left and walk up the stairs. 9 Q. And do you know approximately how much 10 distance there is between the time you enter the 11 door and turn right, before you get to the door? 12 A. Like 17 stairs. 13 Q. No, no, that's not what I asked you. 14 What I asked you was, when you turn to the 15 right through this door, before you get to the door 16 that leads to the stairway, approximately how far is 17 that? 18 A. Eight feet. 19 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Your Honor, could you 20 black the screen just for a moment? 21 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel 22 table.) 23 MR. SNEDDON: Now -- do you want to put that 24 back up? 25 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you, Your Honor. 26 That's fine. 27 MR. SNEDDON: Put the other one back up. 28 I have one last question on the original one. There 1457 1 we go. 2 Q. All right. Star, you indicated to Mr. 3 Mesereau that there was a door that had several 4 locks on it from the inside. Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And can you tell us which door or doors it 7 is that has those locks? 8 So you're referring -- and the exhibit 9 number on that, Star? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Hate to interrupt you, but -- what's the 12 exhibit number on that? 13 A. 54. 14 Q. 54. So you were indicating the two doors to 15 the entrance to the bedroom? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Now, are those doors visible in this 18 photograph or on the other side of the doors? 19 A. The other side of the doors. 20 Q. And what kind of locks are they? 21 A. Um, there's two at the top -- well, one on 22 each door at the top. And you have to push it till 23 it locks. And on the bottom, it's like the same 24 thing, but you're pushing down. 25 Q. So you counted each one of those things as a 26 lock? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Okay. And what else was locked, do you 1458 1 consider a lock? 2 A. The key pad. It will lock the -- I don't 3 know what it's called, but it's that (indicating). 4 Not the doorknob. It was like -- well, it will just 5 unlock it. 6 Q. And where was the key pad that unlocked it? 7 Back over there that you showed us on that other 8 photograph? 9 A. Yes. And there's a lock that you just 10 twist, and there's one more lock. Wait. Wait, I 11 think there's just six, then. 12 Q. Okay. In any case, those were what you 13 considered the locks that you were talking about 14 with the jury? 15 A. Yes. Yes. 16 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the -- 17 A. Six. 18 Q. All right. We have a photograph marked as 19 People's 72. It's in evidence. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is that the one you have in front of you 22 right now? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, with regard to that particular 25 photograph, there is a door depicted in that 26 particular photograph. Do you see that? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Now, with regard to your testimony and the 1459 1 answering of the questions of Mr. Mesereau yesterday 2 and today, do you see the door that you were 3 referring to that leads to Mr. Jackson's bedroom? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. Can you point that out to the 6 jury? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. And that's the door that is 9 indicated about two-thirds of the way over on the 10 left-hand side of the photograph? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Right by the stairwell? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, is that door a different -- is that 15 door different from the one you showed us before 16 that you come into the entryway? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Pardon? 19 A. Well, yes, it's different. It's a single 20 door. 21 Q. And when you referred to a door the first 22 time that you went up the stairs that was -- that 23 you thought was locked until you pushed it the 24 second time, is that the door you're referring to? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. Now, Star, you can put that down if you'd 27 like. 28 And we can turn the lights on, if you'd 1460 1 like, Your Honor. 2 Just a couple of other things that have to 3 do with the residence. 4 You indicated in your testimony that you 5 needed a combination for pads to get into certain 6 locations in Mr. Jackson's -- at Neverland Ranch. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, you've described some of the locations 9 that you needed the pad to get into certain 10 locations. Did you need a combination to get into 11 the arcade? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you need a combination to get into Mr. 14 Jackson's office? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did the combination that you had work? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you need a combination to get into the 19 theater? 20 A. I think it was locked with a key. 21 Q. With a key? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Did you know where they kept the key? 24 A. No, I think security had the key. I don't 25 know who exactly had the key. 26 Q. With regard to the kitchen, did you need a 27 pad to get into the kitchen? 28 A. No, it was open. 1461 1 Q. And when you told us about entering the 2 front door, but there is a rear entrance to Mr. 3 Jackson's residence, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you need to have a combination to get in 6 there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the same combination you've described in 9 answering both my questions and Mr. Mesereau's, that 10 combination worked? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, speaking of the kitchen, Mr. Mesereau 13 asked you about being in the kitchen, and you 14 indicated that you had been out there looking around 15 for some utensils to cook. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you recall that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Will you tell the ladies and 20 gentlemen of the jury why you were in the kitchen 21 cooking? 22 A. Because sometimes the cooks didn't cook it 23 right, so I cooked some stuff. 24 Q. Do you like to cook? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. Is that one of your hobbies? 27 A. One of my hobbies, yes. 28 Q. One other thing, just -- when you answered 1462 1 Mr. Mesereau's question and you said that Gavin went 2 to Neverland Valley Ranch when he was seriously ill; 3 do you recall that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did you mean by that? 6 A. He was seriously ill and he went to 7 Neverland Ranch. 8 Q. What did you mean by "seriously ill"? 9 A. He had cancer. 10 Q. Is that what you meant? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How did you find out that there was a 13 telescope up on the hill? 14 A. We -- me, my brother and -- I don't remember 15 who, but me, my brother and someone else were riding 16 up there with our ATV's and we saw a trail, and so 17 we went up there, and we found like a glass table 18 and -- it was like a covered area. And there was a 19 telescope that was mounted right there. 20 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you some 21 questions now about some things that Mr. Mesereau 22 asked you about. Okay? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. Now, do you remember Mr. Mesereau asking you 25 about the incident that you described where Mr. 26 Jackson got on the bed and scooted over towards your 27 brother, and I think Mr. Mesereau said put his arm 28 around him and was next to him? 1463 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall Mr. Mesereau asking you that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, did you tell the Santa Barbara 5 Sheriff's Department about that incident? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And did you also tell the sheriff's 8 department that there were two other incidents that 9 you saw Mr. Jackson on the bed with your brother? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: The answer was in. 15 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: So you told them there were 16 actually three incidents that occurred? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you told them that in the initial 19 interview; isn't that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you also testified to that at the grand 22 jury, did you not? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You testified to all three incidents? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. So there was two you saw on the stairs, and 27 one you saw when you were in the bedroom? 28 A. Yes. 1464 1 Q. Now, with regard to the time that you saw 2 Mr. Jackson on the bed with your brother, okay? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. And that you've described to the jury with 5 Mr. Jackson's hand inside your brother's private 6 parts, okay? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Now, did you have any difficulty seeing what 9 was going on? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Could you see their eyes? 12 A. A little bit, yes. 13 Q. Could you tell whether or not in the first 14 incident, whether or not your brother's eyes were 15 opened or closed? 16 A. His head was facing down, and I saw his 17 eyes. They were closed. 18 Q. And with regard to Mr. Jackson in the first 19 incident, did you see whether his eyes were open or 20 closed? 21 A. His eyes were closed. 22 Q. And in the second -- well, in the first 23 incident, I think you indicated that you -- well, 24 let me just do it the other way. 25 When you said that you had seen alcohol in 26 Mr. Jackson's room before -- 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. -- on the first incident when you went up 1465 1 there and you saw Mr. Jackson on the bed next to 2 your brother and your brother curled up, did you see 3 alcohol on that occasion? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And where was it in the room? 6 A. It was the nightstand next to the bed. 7 Q. On which side? 8 A. My brother's side. 9 Q. So you had no difficulty seeing the alcohol 10 on the nightstand? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Now, you were asked by Mr. Mesereau to look 13 at a section of the transcript during your grand 14 jury testimony about whether you saw Mr. Jackson 15 fiddling with your brother's shirts or otherwise 16 touching him. Do you recall him asking you that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And then you were asked a question by Mr. 19 Mesereau, where you said -- there was a question, 20 "He would be touching him a lot?" 21 "Yeah." 22 And then you said, "Not his genitals. Not 23 his penis. I never saw that." Okay? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What were you referring to in connection 26 with that statement in relationship to the 27 information you had just talked about? 28 A. I was talking about at the table. 1466 1 Q. At the what? 2 A. At the table. 3 Q. Is that where that incident occurred? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So you didn't see him touch your brother's 6 privates or genitals at the table? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Star, is there any doubt in your mind as to 9 what you saw with regard to your brother and the 10 defendant while they were laying on the bed on the 11 two occasions you testified to the ladies and 12 gentlemen of the jury? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Was it the truth? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. SNEDDON: I have no further questions, 17 Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Recross? 19 MR. MESEREAU: Very briefly, Your Honor. 20 If I may take a second. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. MESEREAU: 25 Q. Have you told the truth throughout your 26 testimony in this courtroom? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. Have you told any lie at all? 1467 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you tell the truth to the grand jury? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Ever tell any lie to the grand jury? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you tell the truth to the police every 7 time you interviewed with them? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Ever tell them any lies? 10 A. No. No. 11 Q. Have you ever lied before? 12 A. Yes. 13 THE COURT: Counsel? One of the jurors 14 needs to use the rest room, so we'll -- I think what 15 we should do is break early. 16 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: We're on a break. 18 (Recess taken.) 19 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel. 20 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 Q. Star, you said there were 17 stairs, right? 22 A. Give or take a few, yes. 23 Q. Did you count them? 24 A. Over time, yeah. 25 Q. What do you mean, "over time"? 26 A. We stood there for a long time. 27 Q. Well, I'm asking you, did you count the 28 stairs? 1468 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. How did you come up with the number "17"? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Pardon me? 5 A. Most stairs like that have 17 stairs. 6 Q. Most stairs like that have 17 stairs? 7 A. Well, most stairways like that have 17 8 stairs. 9 Q. How do you know that? 10 A. Because my house has 17 stairs. 11 Q. Did someone from the prosecution team tell 12 you there was 17 stairs? 13 A. No, they -- no, I just knew there were 17 14 stairs. 15 Q. Did someone from the sheriff's department 16 tell you there were 17 stairs? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you actually count those stairs? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. When? 21 A. I don't know the exact date. But I remember 22 counting them. 23 Q. When you were at Neverland? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And what was the purpose for counting them? 26 A. I don't know. I do that at every house I go 27 to with stairs. I just count the stairs. 28 Q. So you're a compulsive stair-counter? 1469 1 A. No. I just count the stairs. 2 Q. Is that one of your hobbies also? 3 A. No, my other hobby's building airplanes, 4 model airplanes. 5 Q. In none of the police reports do you mention 6 "17 stairs," correct? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Before the grand jury, you never mentioned 9 "17 stairs," correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. But you're saying years ago, you counted 17 12 stairs, right? 13 A. Yes, I just remember the number. 14 Q. You did it just for fun, right? 15 A. Yeah. Just happened to count them. 16 Q. Okay. Now, you gave an eight-feet figure. 17 Remember that? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. How did you figure out eight feet -- 20 A. I don't know. It looked like eight feet, so 21 I just said -- 22 Q. Did you measure that also? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. You just kind of guessed? 25 A. Well, I don't know. Yeah. 26 Q. Did the prosecutor ever tell you eight feet? 27 A. No. 28 Q. Did any member of the sheriff's department 1470 1 ever tell you to say eight feet? 2 A. No. 3 Q. How many stairs are there in the main house 4 leading to the kids' room? 5 A. Let's see. Six -- I don't know exactly 6 how -- 7 Q. You didn't count them? 8 A. No. They're not in a straight line, so I 9 didn't count them. 10 (Laughter.) 11 Q. So when you count stairs, you only do it 12 when they're in a straight line? 13 A. When they're straight. 14 Q. Okay. You didn't count those stairs, did 15 you? 16 A. I did count those stairs. 17 Q. You mentioned you some rode ATV's, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you and your brother used to ride -- 20 rode ATV's on the ranch, right? 21 A. Until someone got lost in the mountains, 22 so.... 23 Q. You actually rode those ATV's into Los 24 Olivos one day, didn't you? 25 A. We never left the ranch. 26 Q. Huh? 27 A. We never left the ranch. 28 Q. Well, you were caught in Los Olivos with 1471 1 them, weren't you? 2 A. By who? 3 Q. By someone who works on the ranch. 4 A. No, it's not true. 5 Q. Never went off the property on the ATV's? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Never were caught by anybody? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Now, you were not supposed to be in the 10 kitchen cooking, correct? 11 A. The cooks encouraged me to cook. 12 Q. You were confronted by Kiki one time about 13 you were not supposed to be in the kitchen, right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You don't recall that? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You don't recall threatening Kiki with a 18 knife when she confronted you in the kitchen? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Never happened? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, Prosecutor Sneddon asked you what you 23 meant when you told the grand jury you hadn't seen 24 Michael Jackson touch Gavin's genitals or penis. 25 Do you remember that? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. And your response to Mr. Sneddon was, "Well, 28 I was just talking about the dinner table," right? 1472 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How come you never mentioned "dinner table" 3 to the grand jury when you made that statement? 4 A. I don't know if they asked me. 5 Q. Well, let me just go through what you said. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. Okay? 8 "Q. What kind of things? 9 "Fix his shirt. 10 "Q. What else? 11 "A. He looked like from -- if you're 12 standing in front of him, it looked like he's 13 trying to fix his shirt. But it's hard to 14 explain. But he would like fix it, like he would 15 touch -- well, it was weird. 16 "Q. He would be touching him a lot? 17 "A. Yeah. 18 "Q. Not his genitals, not his penis? 19 "A. I never saw that. But I saw it in the 20 paper." 21 A. I don't know what I meant by "paper," but I 22 was trying to say that I didn't see it that time. 23 Q. But you never mentioned any kitchen table, 24 right? 25 A. But it wasn't the kitchen table. 26 Q. But you never mentioned any table at all, 27 correct? 28 A. I know. 1473 1 Q. When did you come up with that explanation? 2 MR. SNEDDON: Object; argumentative. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you discuss with 5 Prosecutor Sneddon that you were going to be asked 6 that question? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever discussed the statement you 9 made to the grand jury about not seeing genitals or 10 penis; ever discuss that statement with Mr. Sneddon? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Ever discuss it with any prosecutor? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Ever discuss it with anyone in the sheriff's 15 department? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You don't mention that kitchen table in this 18 context anywhere in the police reports, do you? 19 A. I don't know. 20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I'm going to 21 object. Assumes facts not in evidence as to -- I 22 won't say anything. 23 THE COURT: I don't think he knows what's in 24 the police reports, so -- 25 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I'll rephrase it, Your 26 Honor. 27 Q. In none of your police interviews do you 28 ever make that statement and say, "I'm limiting this 1474 1 to what I saw at the kitchen table," right? 2 MR. SNEDDON: That's what I'm objecting to. 3 It assumes facts not in evidence as to the -- I know 4 you don't want me to speak, but -- 5 THE COURT: I don't want you to speak. 6 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Then -- 7 THE COURT: I'll allow the question. I'll 8 have it read back. 9 (Record read.) 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And in none of your police 12 interviews do you limit that statement about not 13 seeing genitals or penis touched to any table, 14 right? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Today is the first time you ever limited 17 that statement to what you saw at a table, correct? 18 A. I don't -- yes. 19 Q. Now, you've indicated the first time you 20 ever discussed any alleged inappropriate touching by 21 Michael Jackson was with Psychologist Stanley Katz, 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you have admitted that you gave Stanley 25 Katz a different description than you've given in 26 this courtroom, right? 27 A. Yes. 28 Q. In fact, you never mentioned the third event 1475 1 that you've described today to Stanley Katz? 2 A. Because I might have forgot about it. 3 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Sneddon? 5 6 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. SNEDDON: 8 Q. Star, with regard to the table that you're 9 talking about, was it the kitchen table? 10 A. It was the dinner table. 11 Q. And there's -- there's a difference in that 12 particular residence between the kitchen table and 13 the dinner table, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And when you were asked this question, you 16 were asked this question at the grand jury, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you were asked by Mr. Zonen? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And he was asking you about Mr. Jackson 21 fiddling with your brother's shirt? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is that the only occasion that you saw him 24 fiddling with his shirt? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And that was in response to Mr. Zonen's 27 question? 28 A. Yes. 1476 1 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further, Your Honor. 2 MR. MESEREAU: Nothing further, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may 4 step down. 5 Call your next witness. 6 MR. SNEDDON: Gavin Arvizo, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: When you get to the witness 8 stand here, please remain standing. 9 GAVIN ARVIZO: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: Face the clerk here. Raise your 11 right hand. 12 13 GAVIN-ANTON ARVIZO 14 Having been sworn, testified as follows: 15 16 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and 17 spell your name for the record. 18 THE WITNESS: Gavin -- Gavin-Anton Arvizo. 19 THE CLERK: Will you spell your name, please? 20 THE WITNESS: G-a-v-i-n, dash, A-n-t-o-n, 21 A-r-v-i-z-o. 22 THE CLERK: Thank you. 23 24 DIRECT EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. SNEDDON: 26 Q. Okay. I'm going to have to ask you to lean 27 right into that mike and talk loud so we can all 28 hear what you have to say. All right? 1477 1 A. All right. 2 Q. Do you recognize the defendant in this case? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who is that? 5 A. Michael Jackson. 6 Q. Did you know Mr. Jackson for a while? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. Gavin, tell the ladies and 9 gentlemen of the jury, how old are you? 10 A. Right now, I'm 15 years old. 11 Q. And what's your date of birth? 12 A. December 2nd, 1989. 13 Q. And do you have any brothers and sisters? 14 A. Yes. One brother and one sister. And right 15 now I have one half brother. One big brother. 16 Q. And your mother's name? 17 A. Janet -- well, I guess her name right now is 18 Janet Jackson. 19 Q. And your stepfather's name? 20 A. Jay Jackson. 21 Q. And your father's name? 22 A. David Gavino Arvizo. 23 Q. Do you have a sister? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. His name -- her name? 26 A. Davellin Love Arvizo. 27 Q. And you have a brother? 28 A. Yes. 1478 1 Q. Another brother? 2 A. Star David Arvizo. 3 Q. And you said you have a half brother. I'm 4 assuming you mean -- 5 A. Jett. 6 Q. Jett? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, when you were growing up and you 9 started school, do you remember what school you 10 started at? 11 A. Well, like, I think the first school I went 12 to is a school called Durphy. And then I went to a 13 school called Norwood. 14 Q. You got to lean into the mike. 15 A. I think the first school I went to was 16 Durphy, and it was like when I was like four years 17 old. And the teacher said I wasn't, like, old 18 enough to go to school, and I had to go to 19 kindergarten to another school when I was five, 20 something like that. 21 Q. When you were -- like, say, from 22 kindergarten through the third or fourth grade, 23 where were you living? 24 A. I was living at my -- first my grandmother's 25 house, and then we moved to East L.A. 26 Q. And do you remember the street in East L.A. 27 that you moved to? 28 A. Soto. 1479 1 Q. And when you lived on Soto Street, who did 2 you live with at that place, in the beginning? 3 A. I lived with my biological father David and 4 my mom Janet. 5 Q. And what about your brother and sister? 6 A. My brother Star, and my sister Davellin. 7 Q. And can you describe to the ladies and 8 gentlemen of the jury what the inside of the place 9 that you lived at on Soto Street was like? 10 A. It was like one room, and then we had like a 11 kitchen, there was like a hallway kind of, and we 12 had to put all our appliances and stuff in there. 13 And we had one rest room, and one closet, so it was 14 like a bachelor apartment. 15 Q. And where did you sleep in that room? 16 A. We slept like -- when you would open the 17 door, there was -- we would put our bunk beds right 18 there. But then later we didn't have any more bunk 19 beds, and then we all slept on one bed together. 20 Q. Now, during the time that you were living on 21 Soto Street in your -- well, let me ask it this way: 22 At some point did your father leave? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Do you remember that? 25 A. I was at my grandmother's house when it 26 happened. But my mom told me that something 27 happened where he wanted him to take -- she wanted 28 to take my -- my sister and my brother to go to, 1480 1 like, a park or something, and he got angry and he 2 left. 3 Q. Now, did you ever see your father after 4 that? 5 A. No. 6 Q. During the time that your mother and father 7 lived together and you lived with your mother and 8 your father - okay? -- 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. -- how would you describe the nature of 11 their relationship? 12 A. Well, like, they would fight every day, 13 about where we lived and, like, bills and whatever. 14 Q. You got to lean in there. 15 A. They would fight about bills, and his 16 family, and our family. Well, the -- like my mom's 17 mother and father, and their cousins and my -- they 18 would fight about his family; you know what I mean? 19 Q. Did you ever see any physical abuse? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. By whom? 22 A. My dad would hit my mom sometimes. Like I 23 saw him one time grab a fire hydrant and my mom 24 tripped over a cart -- or those -- it was like a 25 black cart that was like about that tall. 26 Q. What did you use the cart for? 27 A. Used it for grocery shopping. It broke 28 really easy, though. And my mom tripped over it 1481 1 because my dad was about to hit her with a fire 2 hydrant. 3 Q. Do you mean -- a fire hydrant; do you mean 4 like -- 5 A. It was a fire -- oh, it was a fire hydrant 6 about that big, about that tall. They had them in 7 our apartment. 8 Q. Okay. Were you ever struck by your father? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. How many times were you struck? 11 A. Well, I was not hit as much as my mom was, 12 but I got hit sometimes. 13 Q. How about your brothers and sisters? 14 A. I saw him hit my brother a lot, like in his 15 head. He -- and my sister sometimes, too, he 16 slapped her. 17 Q. During the summer one time, did you ever 18 attend a comedy camp? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 21 about that. 22 A. When I was -- when I was eight years old, my 23 mom found this flyer, and she always thought that I 24 was, like, kind of funny. So she wanted me to go to 25 this comedy camp that was at a comedy club, and it 26 was called Laugh Factory. 27 And so I went there, and we would -- Jamie 28 would have comedians come, and then we would -- they 1482 1 would teach us and we would take notes and stuff. 2 And then, like, toward the end -- well, when we have 3 our graduation from comedy camp, we each had like 4 a -- like our own coach for each people -- for each 5 person, and my coach was George Lopez. 6 Q. Now, you used the name "Jamie." Do you know 7 Jamie's last name? 8 A. Masada. 9 Q. And did he become a family friend? 10 A. Yeah. He's really close. Like when I had 11 cancer, he would always visit me. And he would feed 12 me food, because I didn't really want to eat, 13 because the chemotherapy makes you always nauseous 14 and always want to throw up. And it got to the 15 point where I got to, like, 68 pounds. And Jamie 16 would feed me pineapple and melon and stuff. 17 Q. Now, when you were at the comedy camp that 18 summer - okay? - did you have somebody that you 19 admired as a comedian? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Who was that? 22 A. Jay Leno. 23 Q. And did you ever talk to anybody about Jay 24 Leno? 25 A. Yeah. 26 Q. Who? Just tell me who first. 27 A. Jamie. 28 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 1483 1 A. At the comedy camp, I would always ask Jamie 2 if Jay Leno was ever going to come, if Jay Leno's 3 going to come and teach us, come to the camp, 4 because I really liked him. Jay Leno was my 5 favorite comedian. But he never came to the camp. 6 Q. At some point in time, you learned -- you 7 became ill, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And when you became ill, what was the first 10 thing that you realized that something wasn't right 11 with your body? 12 A. Well, my stomach was hurting a lot, like it 13 felt like there was a knife in your stomach. And I 14 couldn't sleep at night. I would put my pillow in 15 my stomach, because it really hurt. And then I 16 looked at myself in the mirror and lifted up my 17 shirt, and I saw there was a big bump, like my lower 18 left torso. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And my grandmother came, and she saw it, and 21 she told my parents. And a couple days later we 22 went to the hospital, and they told me -- the 23 doctors were saying, like, it's an inflamed spleen 24 or it's this and that. They weren't really saying 25 it was cancer yet. 26 Q. When you went to the hospital for the first 27 time and they examined you, did they put you in the 28 hospital on that date? 1484 1 A. Yeah. And then I had a surgery that same 2 week on Thursday. So we went there on Monday, I 3 think, and then surgery was on Thursday. 4 Q. When did you personally learn that you had 5 cancer? 6 A. Um, it was before my surgery. They were 7 very open. They would -- didn't try to hide it from 8 me that I had cancer. The surgeons came in and they 9 talked about it, and they said what the cancer was. 10 And they said how they were going to take it out, 11 and they were going to need to take out this -- 12 they're going to need to remove the cancer. And 13 then Thursday they did the surgery. And they had -- 14 they didn't just have to take out the cancer, they 15 had to take out my spleen and my left kidney, 16 because the cancer was eating away at the -- my 17 spleen and my kidney. 18 Q. Now, after you came out of surgery, and 19 you -- did you remain in the hospital for some 20 period of time? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How long; do you remember? 23 A. A few weeks, I guess. 24 Q. During that first period of time after the 25 surgery and you were there for two weeks, did you 26 have any visitors? 27 A. Yeah. 28 Q. Who was that? 1485 1 A. Like my old coach, George Lopez, came, and 2 he would always -- he visited me. Jamie would visit 3 me. And then Louise Palanker would visit me. My 4 grandparents would visit me a lot. George Lopez 5 would always bring me shirts and stuff, because a 6 lot of my clothes didn't fit me anymore. And Jamie 7 would buy me these little toys that I could play 8 with. 9 Jamie would always say like -- I remember 10 hearing him say to my parents actually, to "Always 11 keep him happy. Always keep him happy." 12 Q. Now, did you become friends with George 13 Lopez? 14 A. Oh, yeah. He was like a brother to me. He 15 was very close and caring about everything that 16 happened with my cancer. 17 Q. Are you still close to Mr. Lopez? 18 A. No. Not really. 19 Q. What happened? 20 A. Well, I heard about something that happened 21 between my biological father and George Lopez. 22 There was a confrontation where he went to one of 23 his clubs -- not one of his clubs. One of his shows 24 at a club, and -- 25 Q. Between your -- between who? 26 A. My biological father David and George. 27 Q. After that, did you have any contact with 28 Mr. Lopez? 1486 1 A. No. 2 Q. Was that after your cancer had gone into 3 remission? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. So Mr. Lopez was there for you during the 6 time you were having cancer? 7 A. Yeah, he was always there for me. He would 8 always call and talk to me, call me and say that to 9 "Always" -- that "Always be happy." He'd cheer me 10 up when I was sad and stuff. 11 Q. Now, during the time that you were in the 12 hospital with cancer, did you ever have a 13 conversation with regard to some people that you 14 would like to meet? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Now, at the time that you asked -- you made 17 the request to meet these people, what was your 18 condition at that point in time in terms of whether 19 you thought you were going to live or die? 20 A. Well, me, when I had cancer, I never thought 21 I was going to die. I always -- I never even 22 thought about that. I always thought about, oh, 23 getting done with the chemo and going to school 24 again; you know what I mean? 25 Q. Did the doctors tell you something 26 different? 27 A. Yeah, there was one time that I was -- well, 28 they thought I was sleeping in my bed, and they were 1487 1 talking to my mother and my biological father. And 2 my doctor told them to prepare for my funeral. And 3 that if the cancer didn't kill me, the chemotherapy 4 would. Because the chemotherapy is toxic and they 5 were giving me adult dosages. 6 Q. So who did you make the request of to meet 7 some people while you were undergoing cancer 8 treatment? 9 A. Jamie. 10 Q. And who did you ask to see? 11 A. Well, there's -- I asked -- like every time 12 I would watch Jay Leno's shows was -- Jay Leno was a 13 really nice, really nice comedian, and I always 14 wanted to meet him. And he was like -- I thought he 15 was like the coolest comedian. 16 And then Louise Palanker and Jamie Masada 17 knew that, and so they gave me his phone number. 18 And I would call him up, and I would ask him if he 19 could come and visit me or he could give me his 20 phone number so I could call him, and I would leave 21 messages. 22 Q. Anybody else other than Mr. Leno? 23 A. Michael. 24 Q. Okay. Anybody else? 25 A. Chris Tucker. 26 Q. Okay. Were there any others? Were there 27 others that you asked to meet but you didn't meet? 28 A. Oh, that I didn't meet? No, I don't think 1488 1 so. 2 Q. Okay. Tell me about Mr. Tucker. How was it 3 that you met Mr. Tucker? 4 A. He came to my first benefit that Jamie 5 allowed me to have. And he was sitting there and 6 talking to me, and he was talking to me about God 7 and stuff, and that God's going to bless me and all 8 this stuff like that. And then he wrote his phone 9 number down on a napkin. He told me to call him and 10 that we would hang out sometime. 11 And then so -- the next day I called him 12 because I was -- because it was Chris Tucker and he 13 was really cool. 14 Q. Okay. Did he come over? 15 A. I went over to his house. 16 Q. How did you get there? 17 A. I think my dad drove me over the first time. 18 Q. So you met Mr. Tucker at his house, the 19 first time you met him in person? 20 A. Yeah. No, I met him in person the first 21 time at the benefit. Like he was there. He was -- 22 he was wearing like this white hat and white shirt. 23 Q. During the time that you had cancer, did you 24 become close friends with Mr. Tucker? 25 A. Yeah. He is -- 26 Q. Tell us what Mr. Tucker did to help you. 27 A. He was really close to me. Like, he would 28 always -- like, he took us to the Nickelodeon Awards 1489 1 like two years in a row. And he said, "Well, this 2 is our tradition. We're always going to go to the 3 Nickelodeon Awards." And he got really -- like, we 4 were really close. 5 And, like, one night, on New Year's, I was 6 feeling really sad because I had to be in the 7 hospital, and I was watching the New Year's stuff. 8 And so I called up Chris, and I asked him, 9 "Hey" -- I actually -- I just left a message. I 10 didn't really talk to him in person. I said, 11 "Chris, man, I need my brother. I don't really have 12 anybody here." 13 And then he didn't even -- he didn't call me 14 back. But like at twelve o'clock midnight, he was 15 at my hospital -- well, actually, he was in the 16 elevator coming up to my hospital room as New Year's 17 rang out. And then he came up there, and we were 18 like -- I was all, "Oh, Chris." And he brought Aja, 19 his girlfriend, and little Dustin, his baby. And 20 then I didn't think they were going to come because 21 New Year's already rang out and stuff. Like, ten -- 22 seven -- five seconds after New Year's, he was in my 23 hospital room. And I was really happy, and -- I 24 don't know. And he said, "Well, it's not about 25 looking at when it rings out. It's about being with 26 the people you love." And that's one of the reasons 27 I really like Chris and I got close to Chris. 28 Q. Did Mr. Tucker take you any other places? 1490 1 A. Yeah, he took me to Neverland a couple of 2 times. He took me out there. 3 Q. All right. Any other places that you recall 4 going with Mr. Tucker? 5 A. Oakland. 6 Q. Oakland? 7 A. Yeah. To see -- 8 Q. What was the occasion? 9 A. Oh, because he knew I liked the Raiders 10 football team, so he -- he knew this guy, he knew 11 one guy on the football team. I don't know his 12 first name, but his last name is Pope. And he took 13 me up there in his plane, and then we went and saw 14 an Oakland Raider game. And I remember the Raiders 15 played the Jets. And then the Raiders won that 16 game. And we went into the locker room afterwards. 17 I met a bunch of players and he signed a jersey that 18 I had. So it was pretty cool. 19 Q. Did you ever go to any Laker games with him? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Tell us about that. 22 A. Like, he had these -- like, these pretty 23 rich friends, and he would take me to -- over there, 24 and he would always have, like, front-row seats to 25 the Laker games, and they would take me. 26 And then, like, Chris -- one time Chris 27 bought me a jersey, and we would always have 28 those -- like, I remember seeing -- always go right 1491 1 when we come in, and it was the front-row seats so 2 you could see the line of the court. It was pretty 3 cool. 4 Q. Did you ever go in the locker room? 5 A. No. We went -- it wasn't really a locker 6 room we went to. It was like -- kind of like a 7 garage place, and then we saw, like, all the 8 players. They were already like dressed, leaving. 9 And then I saw Shaq. Like, his whole -- it was 10 like my head came barely past his waist. 11 Q. Big guy, huh? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Are you friends with Mr. Tucker anymore 14 currently? 15 A. Well, I don't know if he still wants to be 16 my friend, but I'm -- no, I haven't called him in a 17 while. And he hasn't -- he hasn't called me and we 18 haven't really talked in a while. 19 Q. Why? 20 A. I don't know. I guess because of all this 21 stuff. 22 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of 23 the jury that you had gone to a benefit. I think 24 that's what you said. A benefit? 25 A. Uh-huh. 26 Q. At The Laugh Factory? 27 A. Yeah. Jamie donated one of his nights to -- 28 for me. I think it was like Thursday or something. 1492 1 Q. And was that a different night or the same 2 night that you met Mr. Tucker for the first time? 3 A. I think that was the -- the first night I 4 met him was -- oh, actually, when I met Chris 5 Tucker, I met him at a graduation for the 2000 class 6 of comedy camp. Like, Jamie invited me over there 7 for that, and Chris Tucker was there. That wasn't 8 when the benefit was. I just remembered that right 9 now. It was then. 10 Q. But did you meet him at a benefit? 11 A. I met Chris at the graduation for, like, 12 2000 comedy camp. 13 Q. All right. Do you know whether Mr. Tucker 14 ever attended any of the benefits that Mr. Masada 15 arranged? 16 A. Yeah, he came to my first benefit. 17 Q. Now, were you at the benefit? 18 A. Yes. I performed in it. 19 Q. Well, who else was there, from your family? 20 A. I had my doctor, my -- Chris and his -- all 21 his friends. And Kobe was there. And he brought 22 his girlfriend or his now wife. I don't know, 23 some -- it was a lady. Louise Palanker was there. 24 A lot of people came, so.... 25 Q. And members of your family. Who was there? 26 A. My mom was there, and my biological father. 27 Oh, I don't know if my mom was there. My biological 28 father was there, I think. 1493 1 Q. Any of your brothers or sisters? 2 A. I'm pretty sure they were there. 3 Q. Now, did you have occasion on that 4 particular night to meet Kobe Bryant? 5 A. No. The first time I really met -- I met 6 Kobe Bryant was at one of the Laker games that Chris 7 brought me. And they were all talking, like, in 8 this hallway. It was -- I don't know, it was 9 like -- it was like a really long hallway. It was 10 all cement. 11 And then Chris and, like, all these other 12 guys were talking to Kobe and they were all leaning 13 against the wall and they were all talking, and I 14 was just sitting there because I was bored. They 15 were all talking about, like, adult stuff. 16 Q. Did you ever have a picture taken with Mr. 17 Bryant? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Where was that picture taken at? 20 A. That was at my first benefit. 21 Q. At where? 22 A. At The Laugh Factory. 23 Q. Now, at any of these benefits -- there were 24 two benefits; is that correct? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. I don't want to put words in your mouth. 27 Were there more than two, or is that -- 28 A. No, I'm pretty sure there was only two. 1494 1 Q. And where was the second benefit? 2 A. At The Laugh Factory. 3 Q. And do you remember how much time elapsed 4 between the first benefit and the second benefit? 5 A. Probably a month maybe. 6 Q. At the first benefit -- or at the second 7 benefit -- let's just go to the second benefit for a 8 second. Just tell me what members of your family 9 were at that benefit. 10 A. I don't know. Maybe -- I guess my dad would 11 be there. 12 Q. Why? 13 A. Because he was the one that was always with 14 me. 15 Q. At either of these benefits, did you ever 16 hear your mother ask for any money? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you ever hear your father ask for any 19 money at these benefits? 20 A. I wouldn't really see him asking for money, 21 but I knew he would be the one getting the money. 22 Q. How do you know that? 23 A. Because he would be the one talking to Jamie 24 about that stuff. 25 Q. During the time that you had cancer, was it 26 necessary for the members of your family to do 27 something to -- with regard to where you stayed when 28 you were not in the hospital? 1495 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. What was that? 3 A. Well, they didn't want me to stay at the 4 apartment anymore. And they wanted to also make me 5 happy, and they knew I loved my grandma, so they had 6 me go live with my grandma. 7 But the problem was, I couldn't go to my 8 grandma's house, because they didn't have a room 9 that I could stay in that was clean, because I had 10 to stay in a clean room. 11 So Louise Palanker gave us some money so 12 that we could fix up a room at my grandma's house. 13 And they gave us money so I could get, like, a -- 14 linoleum tile floors, and -- because I couldn't have 15 carpet because it would be too dusty and bacteria 16 could be there. And I didn't have a spleen, and I 17 had, like, no white blood cells, so I could get 18 sick, really sick, and get fevers and have to go to 19 the hospital and stuff. That's why they had to put 20 down linoleum floors. And then they painted the 21 rooms all, like, this green color. And then they 22 painted white because it was a different color. 23 They got me a better bed and then they also found me 24 a T.V. in my room. 25 Q. Do you remember, how big was the T.V.? 26 A. It was probably about that big (indicating). 27 Q. Okay. I'm a bad judge of distance there. 28 About three feet? 1496 1 A. I don't know. 2 MR. SNEDDON: Counsel, three feet? 3 Q. Depending whether they're Shaq's or not, I 4 guess, huh? 5 Okay. That's good. 6 All right. I'm going to show you some 7 photographs. 8 A. Okay. 9 MR. SNEDDON: Hang on a second. Could we 10 have the lights, Your Honor? 11 Q. Okay. Gavin, do you recognize the people 12 depicted in that photograph? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of 15 the jury -- and what the number is on that 16 photograph? 17 A. It was like four numbers. Exhibit number? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. 49. 20 Q. 49. Okay. People's 49 in evidence. Who 21 are those people? 22 A. All the way to the right is my little 23 brother Star. And then that lady right there is 24 Louise Palanker. And then that's my sister to the 25 right of Louise Palanker. And then that's me. 26 Q. And do you recall when that photograph was 27 taken? 28 A. That was during our camp at Laugh Factory. 1497 1 Q. Do you know where the money came from to fix 2 up your room? 3 A. I think it came from Louise. 4 Q. Did you have a nickname you used to call 5 her? 6 A. Wheezy. Wheezy. 7 Q. Okay. Why don't you turn that photograph 8 over. And I think the next one is 199; is that 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. Do you recognize that 12 photograph? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is that you in that photograph? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall where you were when that was 17 taken? 18 A. I believe that was in my first benefit. And 19 then at The Laugh Factory. 20 Q. Okay. Why don't we turn over -- let's go to 21 the next photograph, if we could. Do you recognize 22 that? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And the number on that photograph is -- look 25 on the exhibit, if you would. 26 A. 337. 27 Q. 337. Okay. Do you recognize that person? 28 A. Yeah, that's me. 1498 1 Q. And where was this taken, this photograph? 2 A. This is in a room that Louise got me, the 3 room that Louise paid for so that I could have it. 4 Q. This is what it looked like after they fixed 5 it up? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. All right. Thanks, Gavin. 8 A. All right. 9 MR. SNEDDON: All right. We can turn the 10 lights back on, Your Honor. Thank you. 11 Q. Gavin, at some point in time, did you have 12 some contact with the defendant in this case, Mr. 13 Jackson? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of 16 the jury how that happened? 17 A. I'm not sure who exactly got Michael to call 18 me. But he -- one night -- it was either Jamie or 19 this lady named Carol Lamir. One day when I was in 20 the hospital, Michael called me up -- well, someone 21 called me up, and I was like, "Who is this?" 22 Q. Lean into the microphone, please. 23 A. Someone called me in my hospital room, and I 24 asked who was this? And then they said they were 25 Michael Jackson. 26 Q. And did you believe them? 27 A. Well, yeah. 28 Q. And how long did the conversation last? 1499 1 A. That was a pretty short conversation. It 2 was only about, like, five minutes long. 3 Q. Now, did you have other conversations with 4 Mr. Jackson? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. How many do you think you had -- let me ask 7 you this. Let's do it this way: At some point in 8 time, were you invited to go to Mr. Jackson's ranch 9 at Neverland Valley Ranch? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Between the time you received the first 12 telephone call from the person identifying 13 themselves as Michael Jackson until you went to the 14 ranch, how many calls did you think you had between 15 you and Mr. Jackson? 16 A. That was -- there was only one call, because 17 the first time that he called me, he invited me up 18 to the ranch, said he wanted me to come down. 19 Q. Were you undergoing chemotherapy at this 20 time? 21 A. Yes, I was in the middle of a round of 22 chemotherapy. 23 Q. During this conversation with Mr. Jackson, 24 was a date set for you folks to go there, or how was 25 it that the date was set for you to go? 26 A. He just said that he wanted me to come down. 27 And then I'm not sure how it got set up, but he was 28 telling me like -- about, like, my cancer, and 1500 1 talked to me about -- that he wanted me to go to his 2 ranch and stuff like that. 3 I don't know how it got set up to go up 4 there. I think they talked to my parents or 5 something. 6 Q. During the time that you had cancer, did you 7 have other telephone calls with Mr. Jackson? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Could you give us an estimate of how many 10 calls that you had from him? 11 A. I don't know. Like 20 maybe. 20 calls. 12 Q. Were some of them quite lengthy? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Were they all in the hospital? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Where were you when you had other calls with 17 Mr. Jackson? 18 A. My grandma's house. 19 Q. Now, you said that you were invited by Mr. 20 Jackson to go up to his ranch? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. And had you ever heard of Mr. Jackson's 23 ranch prior to that? 24 A. No. After when he, like, called me and said 25 "ranch," I thought it was like a ranch with horses. 26 Q. So how did you get up to the ranch? 27 A. There was a limousine that came to my 28 grandma's house and then we went up in a limousine. 1501 1 Q. And who went up there? 2 A. It was me, my mom, my biological father, my 3 sister, my brother and me. 4 Q. And do you remember about -- like, was it 5 daylight or was it dark when you got there? 6 A. It was daylight. 7 Q. And do you remember what happened when you 8 first got there? 9 A. Um, yeah, I think -- I guess they told 10 Michael we were up there already. And he had a bib 11 on, because he was eating. And then he ran out and 12 he greeted us and he had, like, a red shirt on, a 13 black tie. 14 Q. All right. Did you have any conversation 15 with Mr. Jackson at that time, during the greetings? 16 A. Well, he just said hi to us, because he had 17 to go do something. 18 Q. So where did you go after Mr. Jackson went 19 to do something? 20 A. I think we ate. 21 Q. All right. 22 A. I guess. 23 Q. What did you do after that? 24 A. We went and saw the unit that he put us in. 25 And then they were afraid -- like, my dad was kind 26 of afraid of putting me on rides, because he thought 27 maybe, because of my surgery, I might, like, rupture 28 something or whatever. And then -- but I eventually 1502 1 talked him into letting me go on rides, and we 2 started going on rides and stuff. 3 Q. At the amusement park? 4 A. Yeah, at the ranch. 5 Q. Now, let's go back just a moment. Okay? 6 You said that you were placed in some room somewhere 7 to stay. Where -- where were those located in 8 relationship to the main residence? 9 A. They were like 50, 100 yards away from the 10 main house, and that's where they put, like, all our 11 bags and stuff. 12 Q. All the what? 13 A. All our bags. All in the place where we 14 were staying. They put all our bags in those rooms. 15 Q. The room that you stayed in, who stayed in 16 that room with you? 17 A. Well, the first night I didn't really stay 18 in that room. But the person that was supposed to 19 stay in that room was me and my brother. 20 Q. And where was your mother and your sister? 21 A. My mother, my sister stood in the guest -- 22 a queen-sized room or something. No, I think me, my 23 brother, and my sister was going to stay in one 24 room, and then my mom and my biological father were 25 going to stay in another. 26 Q. Do you remember any incident while you were 27 at Neverland Ranch on this first visit involving 28 your mother and your father? 1503 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. What happened? 3 A. They kind of got in a fight again, and my 4 mom had makeup on and my dad made fun of her and 5 said she looked like a clown, and then my dad got a 6 cup of soda and threw it in her face. 7 Q. Now, after you got to Neverland Ranch, 8 before we go to the next day or to that night, did 9 you ever ride any of the carts, the motorized carts 10 there? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Tell us about that. 13 A. Well, I couldn't really ride one yet because 14 Michael said, like, I had to go through his driving 15 test to see if I could drive the carts. And then I 16 could drive them. So -- 17 Q. What did the test amount to? 18 A. Just make sure I wouldn't crash it; I knew 19 how to, like, drive it and not run into things. 20 Q. And did you -- did you ride in one of those 21 carts? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Was somebody with you? 24 A. Well, when -- like, riding -- those times 25 when I was riding it? 26 Q. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. 27 A. What do you mean? That one time? 28 Q. Yeah, in the beginning. 1504 1 A. I had to take his test first. So Michael 2 was in the car with me. And it was in his cart, 3 like a black one with doors and, like, it's all 4 covered up. 5 Q. And what about your brother, Star? 6 A. I didn't really see when he got his test, 7 but my brother would ride in one, too. 8 Q. All right. When you were at Neverland 9 Ranch, was there ever an occasion where you slept in 10 Mr. Jackson's room with Mr. Jackson? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of 13 the jury how it came about that you ended up 14 sleeping with Mr. Jackson in his bedroom? 15 A. I think we were in his office. We were all 16 talking. 17 Q. Who's "we"? 18 A. Me, my brother and Michael. We were all in 19 his office, and we were talking. And then Michael 20 said we should sleep in his room. And then I was 21 like -- I was, like, "Okay, yeah," because we were, 22 like, wanted to sleep in his room, too. And then he 23 told us to ask in front of our parents if we could 24 sleep in his room. 25 So I think it was like at dinner, we had 26 asked her -- we asked our parents if we could sleep 27 in Michael's room, and then so we did. And then my 28 parents said yeah, it was okay. 1505 1 Q. So when you say "we," who else went with 2 you? 3 A. My brother. 4 Q. Now, at some point that night, then, you go 5 into Mr. Jackson's bedroom? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What were you doing in there; do you recall? 8 A. Well, it started out, like, we were going to 9 watch some Disney cartoons, and a bunch of these 10 videotapes of the Simpsons. And then Frank had -- 11 Frank Tyson had a computer -- I don't remember 12 whether it was my computer or his computer -- in 13 there. 14 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened. 15 A. And then he set up the computer. And then 16 Frank started doing this -- doing stuff on the 17 Internet. And then they started looking up, like, 18 adult material sites. 19 Q. Where -- was Mr. Jackson there? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Was Mr. Jackson involved in that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in what way? 24 A. Well, we were -- he was, like, pointing out 25 girls. Like, "Oh, I like her." And then -- but, I 26 mean, he wasn't typing. Frank was typing. 27 Q. So how long do you think -- how many 28 different sites do you think you went to? 1506 1 A. Maybe, like, seven sites. We didn't go to 2 that many sites. 3 Q. And how long do you think you were doing 4 this? 5 A. I don't know. Maybe, like, 15, 30 minutes. 6 Something like that. 7 Q. I couldn't hear you. 8 A. I think maybe, like, 15, 30 minutes or 9 something. 10 Q. And you described it as adult materials. 11 Can you tell us whether it was male or female? 12 A. It was female. 13 Q. Can you tell us about the age -- in your 14 estimation, the age of the females that you saw? 15 A. Maybe, like, 15 to, like, 25 years old. 16 Q. So between that range? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Now, during the time that you were on the -- 19 you were seeing the -- 20 The bailiff tells me that I'm to ask you to 21 scoot closer to the microphone. And we all do what 22 the bailiff says. Okay? 23 A. All right. 24 Q. So lean into it and talk into it just like I 25 am. Okay? 26 A. All right. 27 Q. Perfect. 28 Now, during the time that you were in the 1507 1 room going through these sites on the computer, did 2 Mr. Jackson say anything? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Tell the jury what he said. 5 A. Like one time we were, like, looking at the 6 site, and there was this girl with her shirt up. 7 And Michael says -- like, it was all quiet and 8 stuff, and Michael was like, "Got milk?" And we 9 started laughing because he said that. 10 Q. Okay. Did he say anything else? 11 A. Like, Paris and Prince were sleeping in his 12 bed. And then Michael leaned over to Prince in his 13 ear and he said, "Prince, you're missing all the 14 p-u-s-s-y." 15 Q. Did he spell it? 16 A. No. 17 Q. During the time that you became acquainted 18 with Mr. Jackson, did you have a nickname that he 19 used? 20 A. Well, it wasn't really a nickname just for 21 me. Like, he would call all the kids that came to 22 his ranch that. It was either like "Doo-Doo Head" 23 or "Apple Head." 24 Q. So he would call you either one of those two 25 things? 26 A. Yes. 27 Q. And do you recall whether he had a nickname 28 for your brother? 1508 1 A. Yeah. Like, we were trying to make up 2 nicknames one time. He has a video library. And 3 then we made up one for my brother, "Blow Hole." 4 Q. Did your sister Davellin have a nickname? 5 A. No. 6 Q. After you visited the ranch on the occasion 7 that you described -- just described to us - okay? - 8 did you go back to the ranch? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Did you go back to the ranch? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who did you go back with? 13 A. My biological father. 14 Q. And do you recall how many times you went 15 back? 16 A. Maybe, like, seven, ten times, something 17 like that. I mean -- 18 Q. Do you remember a time when you went back to 19 the ranch and there was a video taken of you and 20 Star with Mr. Jackson? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And do you recall on that particular 23 occasion when the video was made, like how many -- 24 where on these trips was that? In the beginning, 25 the middle or the end? Where was it? 26 A. It was really toward the beginning. 27 Q. And did your mother go with you on any of 28 those trips? 1509 1 A. No. I think she, like, didn't come with me 2 after the first time. 3 Q. How about your sister? 4 A. I don't think she did either, because she 5 was at school. Between that and to Miami, or -- 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. -- when I had cancer? 8 Q. Yes, between that and Miami. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Was there -- let me put it this way: Was 11 there a time when you went back to the ranch with 12 Chris Tucker? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. So let's just use that as a point in 15 time. All right? 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. From the time you went there for the very 18 first time with your whole family, when Mr. Jackson 19 invited you, to the time when you went back with Mr. 20 Tucker - okay? - for the first time? 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. How many times had you visited the ranch? 23 A. Maybe, like, seven times probably. 24 Q. And during those times -- during that period 25 of time, was your mother ever with you, other than 26 the first time? 27 A. No. 28 Q. How about your sister? 1510 1 A. No, I don't think so. 2 Q. The video that shows you and Mr. Jackson and 3 your brother Star, when you're wheeled around in the 4 wheelchair -- 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. -- did anybody tell you why they were doing 7 that? 8 A. No. Michael just said he wanted to make a 9 video and keep it, of me and him. 10 Q. During the time from when -- the first time 11 you went to the ranch that you've described to us to 12 the time that you went there with Mr. Tucker - 13 okay? - during that, I think you said seven times, 14 how many of those times was Mr. Jackson actually 15 present on the ranch? 16 A. Maybe twice. 17 Q. And on those occasions when Mr. Jackson was 18 on the ranch, did you have any contact with him? 19 A. Those two occasions, yeah. But, I mean, 20 like, sometimes I would go up to the ranch and he 21 would say that he's not there, and then he would be 22 there. 23 Q. What do you mean by that? 24 A. Like, when I would have cancer. I don't 25 know what happened, but Michael, like, kind of 26 stopped talking to me and stuff, right in the middle 27 of my cancer. 28 And, like, I would go up there, and I would 1511 1 see, like, Prince and Paris playing there, and I 2 would think that Michael was there, and they would 3 tell me that Michael wasn't there. And then, like, 4 I would see him somewhere, and -- I don't know. 5 Q. Was there one occasion when you actually ran 6 into him by accident? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Tell the jury about that. 9 A. Well, I was playing with Prince and Paris 10 outside, like in the back of the house near where 11 the arcade was. And then we were walking into 12 the -- into the main house. And I knew the code, 13 because they would give me the codes. And then I 14 walked in the door with Prince in my hand and Paris 15 in my other hand, and -- we were holding hands. And 16 then we walked into the house and there I saw 17 Michael walking, like, toward me. But I guess he 18 didn't see me turn the corner. And then he acted as 19 if, "Oh, crap," you know what I mean? Like, he saw 20 me. And then -- then he just played it off and, 21 like, acted like, "Oh, hi, Doo-Doo Head." You know, 22 at the time I -- I was kind of hypnotized and, like, 23 he's my -- 24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for a 25 narrative and nonresponsive. 26 THE COURT: Sustained. 27 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. 28 A. And then, like -- 1512 1 Q. That's all right. I'll give you a question. 2 So in any case, you bumped into him? 3 A. Yeah. And I was -- because of -- 4 Q. That's okay. How much more contact did you 5 have with him on that time when you bumped into him? 6 How much time did the contact last? 7 A. I didn't really see him through my cancer a 8 lot. 9 Q. I mean, you told the ladies and gentlemen of 10 the jury there was an occasion where you were there 11 when you kind of bumped into him by accident? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. When you actually made contact with him - 14 okay? - how long did that last? Just -- how long 15 was the conversation between the two of you? 16 A. Maybe, like, five minutes. When -- that 17 time we bumped into each other, and then we just 18 talked about -- and stuff, and he said he had to go 19 somewhere. 20 Q. Now, you mentioned that you -- well, let me 21 ask you this: Did you ever have a phone number for 22 Mr. Jackson? 23 A. Yeah. He gave me a lot of phone numbers. 24 Q. I couldn't hear you. 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. And how did you get those phone numbers? 27 A. Michael would give them to me, or Frank 28 would sometimes. 1513 1 Q. And when did you get those phone numbers? 2 A. Toward the beginning. 3 Q. Beginning of what? 4 A. Like, the beginning of my cancer. First or 5 second time we went up to the ranch. 6 Q. Was there a certain point in time when those 7 phone numbers weren't working anymore? 8 A. Yeah. Like -- 9 Q. Do you remember how long it was into your 10 cancer when those phone numbers were no longer good? 11 A. Maybe, like, halfway through. Like, it 12 seemed like he changed all his numbers, or the 13 numbers that I called, he wouldn't pick up. And -- 14 or, like, Frank's cell phone wasn't -- he wouldn't 15 pick up. Frank wouldn't pick up his phone either. 16 And -- 17 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of 18 the jury that there was a time that you went back to 19 the ranch with Mr. Tucker. Do you remember that? 20 Do you remember when you went? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Tell the jury when it was you went. 23 A. I don't know. It was for his little 24 son's -- Dustin's birthday. 25 Q. And who went with you? 26 A. Me, my now dad Jay, and I think my mom went, 27 and my brother and my sister, and they had his 28 birthday party there. 1514 1 Q. Were there other times that you spent on the 2 ranch with Mr. Tucker? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. And how long do you think you were there 5 with Mr. Tucker? 6 A. For -- with Dustin's party? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. I don't know. It was just a day thing. We 9 went up there for one day and then we came back. 10 Q. You came what? 11 A. I think we just went there for that and then 12 came back home. 13 Q. Were there other occasions when you were up 14 there with Mr. Tucker? 15 A. Yeah, one other time. 16 Q. And how long did you stay on that occasion? 17 A. We stood there for, like, a few -- like a 18 week or -- maybe a week and a half, something like 19 that. 20 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there on the day of Mr. 21 Tucker's son's birthday? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And when you went back and stayed for about 24 a week or a week and a half, was Mr. Jackson there? 25 A. With Chris? 26 Q. Yes. 27 A. He was there, like, for a few days. That 28 was when -- I believe that was when the Martin 1515 1 Bashir thing happened. 2 Q. I'm sorry? 3 A. I believe that was when the Martin Bashir 4 thing happened. 5 Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about Martin 6 Bashir. 7 Were you introduced to a person by the name 8 of Martin Bashir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And where were you introduced to the person 11 by the name of Martin Bashir? 12 A. In Michael's living room, in his main house. 13 Q. And who introduced you to Mr. Bashir? 14 A. Michael. 15 Q. Now, how did you get to the ranch? 16 A. Um, I think Chris drove me up that time. 17 And then -- in his bus. 18 Q. And did any other members of your family go 19 with you? 20 A. It was only me, my sister and my brother. 21 Q. And did you know why you were going to the 22 ranch? 23 A. Michael wanted me to go up there, and then I 24 think I called Chris. Because I would always tell 25 him that we never went up there, like together. 26 We'd never been at the ranch together with Chris. 27 He would go up there one time, and I would be at 28 home. And then I would go up, and he would be home. 1516 1 So we said that we'd all go there together. So we 2 all went up there, and Chris took us up there. 3 Q. Do you -- when you got there -- let me go 4 back in point in time. 5 Did you have a conversation with Mr. Jackson 6 before you went up to the ranch for the Bashir 7 thing - meaning Mr. Bashir - within, let's say, days 8 of that? 9 A. Michael told me that he wanted me to go up 10 to the ranch, but -- that's when he wanted me to go 11 with -- well, that's when it was set up with Chris, 12 but I mean before that, I didn't talk to him in a 13 very, very long time. 14 Q. So when you said Mr. Jackson told you he 15 wanted you to go up to the ranch, how did that 16 communication occur between you and Mr. Jackson? 17 A. I don't know. He called my house. And he 18 kind of said he was trying to find me or something. 19 Q. All right. So you go up to the ranch and 20 you meet Mr. Bashir. When you got to the ranch, 21 what was the first thing that happened? 22 A. Well, he put our bags away. And then I 23 had -- and I went into the main house. And -- 24 Michael took me to the main house. 25 Q. Who did? 26 A. Michael. 27 Q. The defendant? 28 A. Yes. 1517 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. And then introduced me to Martin Bashir. 3 Q. All right. What happened then? 4 A. He told me -- 5 Q. Who's "he"? 6 A. No, actually, I don't think that's the first 7 thing that happened. I think -- he started talking 8 to me about what was going to happen and stuff. 9 Like, he was pointing -- he was telling me about 10 another young man that was a burn victim. And he 11 was telling me about how he helped him or whatever. 12 Q. Who's this? Who's the "he"? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. No, who was talking to you? 15 A. Michael. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. And then -- 18 Q. Where were you when you had this 19 conversation? 20 A. I think we were driving in one of the carts. 21 And then he was telling me that he was filming 22 something or something like that. 23 Q. All right. Did -- did you at some point go 24 inside? 25 A. Yeah. 26 Q. Did you have any other conversations with 27 Mr. Jackson? 28 A. Yeah, that's when he introduced me to Martin 1518 1 Bashir. 2 Q. Any other conversation with Mr. Jackson? 3 A. Yeah. Like, he introduced me to Martin 4 Bashir, and then he took me -- I think it was in the 5 library where he took me. And then he was telling 6 me, "Hey, you want to be an actor, right? And I was 7 like, "Yeah. I want to be comedian though." And 8 then he was like, "But you can act too, right?" And 9 then I was like, "Yeah." 10 "Well, I'm going to put you in the movies. 11 And this is your audition. Okay?" 12 And I was like, "Oh, all right." 13 And he told me, "Okay. I want you to go in 14 and then tell them about how I helped you." And he 15 told me to, like, make sure -- tell them about, 16 like, this and that, and about "that you call me 17 dad," or "Daddy," or -- 18 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive; 19 calls for a narrative. 20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, this is the 21 conversation. 22 THE COURT: Well, it is narrative, though. 23 MR. SNEDDON: All right. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Was there anything else 26 said during the conversation? 27 A. He told me that he wanted me to say certain 28 things on the videotape. 1519 1 Q. What did he tell you to say on the 2 videotape? 3 A. He told me to say that he helped me, and 4 that he -- he pretty much cured me of cancer. 5 Q. Did you do that? 6 A. Um -- 7 Q. On the video? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Was it true? 10 A. Not really, because he -- during my cancer, 11 he wasn't really even there. I mean, the real 12 people -- I mean, it's, like, the real people who 13 were there were George Lopez, because he would 14 always visit me in the hospital like every day, and 15 he would bring me shirts and stuff. Chris Tucker 16 would always visit me in the hospital. Louise 17 Palanker would come and we'd make jokes because, 18 like, I wasn't good at smelling stuff. Chemotherapy 19 would clear out everything. And then Fritz Coleman, 20 would always come with Louise and talk to me, and -- 21 Q. At this point in time, when you went up to 22 the Bashir video -- 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. -- to the Bashir interview, okay? -- 25 A. Uh-huh. 26 Q. -- did you have -- did you admire Mr. 27 Jackson? 28 A. Yeah. I was like -- 1520 1 Q. What was your attitude towards Mr. Jackson 2 at this point in time? 3 A. I thought, like, he was the coolest guy in 4 the world. He was like my best friend ever. Do you 5 know what I mean? 6 Q. So you had a genuine affection for Mr. 7 Jackson at this time? 8 A. Yeah, I really liked him. He was like -- I 9 don't know, he was just -- like -- I -- 10 Q. So during the course of the interview with 11 Mr. Bashir - okay? - after that interview was 12 completed, all right? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Tell us what happened after the interview 15 was completed. Was there any other filming that 16 went on that day? 17 A. No, I don't think so. 18 Q. Do you know whether or not your brother and 19 sister ever got their picture taken in the filming? 20 A. Well, yeah. Well, there was one time that I 21 saw on the tape that they filmed us. I didn't even 22 know the camera was on. And they were inside of the 23 kitchen and my sister and brother were there. And 24 me and my brother were showing Michael a marching 25 cadence from one of the programs that we were in 26 that we had learned. 27 Q. Okay. What was -- what was the -- what was 28 the marching cadence from, what program? 1521 1 A. It's from a program called the United States 2 Naval Sea Cadets. 3 Q. And had you -- what was the situation of you 4 learning this cadence? Just part of the training? 5 A. Yeah, it was part of the basic training that 6 we went to. 7 Q. How long was the basic training? 8 A. Two weeks ago. 9 Q. Where was it? 10 A. He went to a Navy Leaguer boot camp, and it 11 was for, like, younger kids. And then I went to a 12 sea cadet boot camp. It's harder and it's for older 13 kids. 14 Q. Now, did you know at the time that Mr. 15 Bashir was interviewing you with Mr. Jackson, the 16 defendant in this case, did you know that that video 17 was going to be shown around the world? 18 A. No, not at all. I thought it was another 19 thing like -- like he had filmed before, like him 20 carrying me across the bridge, that video. I 21 thought it was going to be another thing like that, 22 like he was going to, like, put it away somewhere 23 and keep it just for himself. 24 Q. Had there been other instances on the ranch 25 where you had been filmed with Mr. Jackson, other 26 than the one with him carrying you across the 27 bridge, and the one with Mr. Bashir, that you 28 recall? 1522 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, after the filming was over, do you 3 recall seeing Mr. Jackson at all, after that? 4 A. After the film? After the Martin Bashir 5 thing? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Well, I think he left, like, the next day. 8 And me and my brother and my sister, like, stood up 9 there, and we were, like, swimming and stuff. 10 Q. Did you have any contact with Mr. Jackson 11 after the filming? 12 A. No. Like, the same thing happened. Like, 13 the phone number they gave me while I was up there 14 wasn't working no more. 15 Q. It's a bad question on my part. 16 While you were at the ranch for the Mr. 17 Bashir filming and after the filming was over with 18 but before you and your brother or your sister left, 19 did you have any contact with Mr. Jackson at all? 20 A. No. A day after the filming, he left the 21 ranch and went somewhere. 22 Q. So where did you spend the night after the 23 Bashir film? 24 A. In our unit that they gave us. 25 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, this would be a 26 good place to stop. If you want me to go on -- 27 THE COURT: All right. You know, I've 28 decided that if I have to go to the rest room, I'm 1523 1 not going to say that. I'm going to say, "I have an 2 important call." 3 (Laughter.) 4 See you tomorrow at 8:30. 5 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.) 6 --o0o-- 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 1524 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE ) 5 OF CALIFORNIA, ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7 -vs- ) No. 1133603 8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, ) 9 Defendant. ) 10 11 12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, 13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby 14 certify: 15 That the foregoing pages 1402 through 1524 16 contain a true and correct transcript of the 17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled 18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at 19 said proceedings on March 9, 2005, and thereafter 20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided 21 transcription under my direction. 22 DATED: Santa Maria, California, 23 March 9, 2005. 24 25 26 27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304 28 1525